Help needed for 200 mile ride

Please, do tell more

I don’t know if it’s really fat adapted riding or just practice at not eating, but it does help. On the TR podcast, they recommended riding in the morning before you eat anything. I think they recommended a 15 minute low intensity workout before eating any calories. I usually do a 30 minute low intensity workout before eating. I only do this occasionally. I also avoid eating on the occasional longer ride. My first 200km ride in 2018 I didn’t eat much and nothing in the second 100km. I find that I can ride about 40 miles without eating in the middle of a long ride and it doesn’t affect my riding too much. That’s very useful.

I don’t get this if you’re a bike racer. If I’m racing whether it’s an hour race or a 12 hour race I want my body to perform 100%. If fuel is available why wouldn’t I want to give it the best source of energy? It’s not about surviving it’s about thriving in a race.

I’m sure my car can race longer (indefinitely) harnessing the power of the sun through solar panels. Or I can give it rocket fuel that’s available in my pockets and at aid stations!

Now if we’re talking triathletes, iron mans, stage races, unsupported events, etc. (or those with gut issues) where it’s difficult to eat, sure it makes sense. Otherwise, give me rocket fuel.

Traditional base training teaches your body to become more efficient at using fat as fuel, this is the “train slow now to get faster later” approach.

You can get some of those same adaptations from sweet spot base, and from fasted training 2-3 times a week (https://roadcyclinguk.com/how-to/fitness-from-bronze-to-gold-in-2013-part-five.html).

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sure, no question about that, meeting all your energy needs by eating is the way to go. But if someone rides enough long distance events, they are eventually going to have gut issues or some other reason why they can’t eat reliably. And fat adapted riding evens out my energy availability. I think it’s a useful addition to training for someone that is going to ride long distance events.

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I think some people might not realize what we (randonneurs) mean by long distance events. It would probably be easier to understand if we express the distances in expected hours, not kilometers.

Someone who is super fast, and I mean elite kind of fast, will take in the vicinity of 60 hours to do Paris-Brest-Paris, maybe a little less if they are users.

Under 84 hours is still impressive. The majority of the pack is aiming at less than 90 hours.

There is no way we can use “rocket fuel” for those lengths of time.

I doubt that I can do any “specialty” training here on Trainer Road for randonneuring. The strategy that makes most sense to me is SweetSpot-Build(Longterm power)-Repeat, ignoring the specialty phase. It will be replaced by simply doing qualifying brevets.

I used to train for doing a 300 km by doing a 200 km, and a 400 km by doing a 300 km, and so on. 200 and 300 are routine rides. 400 starts to make demands on my body and mental state. 600 can be split up into 400 and 200 with time to spare (= some sleep inbetween).

A 200 mile is about like a 300 km. It will be demanding. I would probably recommend doing a longish ride before it, no so much for the physical training, but for the mental training.

The first time I did a Super Randonneur series, I thought all of the distances were tough, even 200 km. So I did each distance twice. The second time around I applied what I learned from the first and the second time around always went better.

It’s not so much the distance … it is tripping into a deep, dark cellar and learning how to pull yourself out of it. I usually don’t cry until the distances get over 1200 km (London-Edinburgh-London, 1400 km, made me cry). You get used to it. But it can get pretty deep and pretty dark.

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@dlridings I’d like to do some longer events in 2019. Not like you but, maybe pushing pretty hard for 8-10 hours. How do you guys pace something like that? Do you pace it?

I realize each race/course/field is different but, when I’m on my own I’m thinking of settling in around 75% FTP. Any advise welcome.

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I’m not an expert. I’ve done a lot of rides, more than most but less than others. I feel I learn all the time.

Some of us refuse to use a speedometer. They don’t like the stress of watching the speed sink (particularly up hills). Others like to ride alone (I’m one of those) so that we can set our own pace and just keep going.

On a brevet ride, you have controls, where you have to go in and get your card stamped, to prove you’ve been there. You can make up a lot more time making those stops short and sweet, than you can faffing around at the control and then try to sprint in lost time. If someone spends 20 minutes longer at a control, drinking coffee, filling water bottles, using the restroom and a thousand other things that are much more attractive than getting back on the bike … if they spend 20 minutes longer than me and I’m averaging 20 mph (just for the sake of the math), then I am almost 7 miles ahead of them when they leave the control. If they want to catch up with me in an hour, they have to average 27 mph for the next hour just to break even.

But when it comes to power … this is the first season I am training in a structured manner so my guess is as good as yours. But we land at the same estimation, around 75% of FTP. With plenty of Sweet spot work and steady state power in the build session, I’m pretty sure that we can go 75% of FTP for hours at a time. Just don’t get tempted to push it a lot harder, a lot longer. It will come at a price.

I really think that watching the power instead of the speed will get us a lot further up the front. A sprint or two up shorter hills won’t hurt.

At 75% we can feed ourselves out of our jersey pockets. A fried egg sandwich fits nicely. Train on breathing through your nose … you don’t want any crumbs down your wind-pipe.

The most important thing to remember is … you can do it. You really can. And if you can do 200, you can do 300. If you can do 300, you can do 400 (but it will feel tougher … for me at least. 400 is the toughest).

If you are based in the US, make sure you visit: http://rusa.org

There are a lot of helpful, nice people, all over the country. I’m in Europe, but I’ve ridden with a few of them. The Coulee Challenge in Minnesota/Wisconsin was great.

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Thank you!

Agreed. 2 riders, both with the same FTP. Rider A has better fat metabolism than rider B. At the 6 hr point into a 10 hr race, both riders get gut issues and can no longer consume much food. Which rider will finish stronger? My vote is for rider A.

I have heard 2/3 of ftp is a good limit for long distance. But that was from someone who had an ftp of 350w or something like that. I am often at 85% or more. I feel like I’m slacking when I’m at 75%. Only thing for it for me is to lose weight.

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I’ll keep that in mind. I haven’t tried keeping a power level outside yet. There aren’t that many workouts here on Trainer Road (that I have run across so far) that hover around 85% for a good length of time, so I don’t have a feel for that yet. I know that 75% feels doable, absolutely, and I’ve often wondered if I might want to drift out of “endurance” into “tempo”. Nice to hear that someone else has experience with that.

I think 85% is in the range that isn’t considered that great for training. It might reduce your fitness a little if you don’t balance it with some HIIT. I keep that in mind while riding an event, but it’s usually not my main concern. I have an older power meter that isn’t that easy to use, so I mostly use it to calibrate how I feel to the power level. What I found is that I am pretty good at estimating power level because of my experience on the trainer. But I think a better power meter would be worth it, if only to track TSS.

My plans are similar to your strategy, though I did treat myself to Favero Assioma pedals to use outside for Christmas. I doubt that I will use them on the longer events. I need shoes to faff around for the longer events.

I did find a workout similar to what we have been talking about, Cumberland. “This is where many half-distance triathletes will live for 2+ hours during their bike leg. This is also where ample time is spent during long road races, especially ones with steady climbs.” (80 - 85%).

There are others in the tempo type of plans.

Depending on the elevation profile, you may need to set in at a slightly lower % - say 70%, and keeping something in reserve for longer climbs. Your normalised power may end up more like 75%, but pacing the flats at 75% may not leave enough in the tank when you have to climb at 80-85% just to keep a reasonable cadence.

One of the tricky things is whether to ride with others. You can save some energy drafting, but expend more than you want trying to keep up.

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Good points. My goal is Paris-Brest-Paris. With the exception of the last 90 km (of 1200+) it is never flat. The first time I did it, I was told it was hilly. “Hilly” does not quite get across the character of the course. It more or less looks like this for over 1000 km. This is the third segment (out of about 14).

So your point about settling in at a lower % is well-taken.

Drafting doesn’t ever really help, not for me anyway. Going uphill, I have to take it as I can. Rushing downhill, I certainly don’t want to be behind someone I don’t know at high speeds. But there are “trains” passing all the time. If you need to drop out of one, no real problem. Another one will pass. (Assuming you start with the 90 hour group. If you start with the 84 hour group, the last ones to start, you’d be on your own.)

I suspect you are right. 70% might not feel like much the first day, but the time will come when you struggle to hold it. I’ll probably do a long brevet this coming year as a preparation and give my legs a feel for it, on the third day.

The climbs never quit. They just never do. It is hard to describe that feeling. “Hilly” doesn’t capture it. Nothing steep, but all the time.

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PBP has plenty of potential for headwinds. I rode the 90 hour group in 2011, and we were very lucky to have tailwinds both ways. But this also means that if the weather pattern had been reversed, we could have had headwinds both ways. There have been years when there were headwinds going back to Paris. The first and last 100k are mostly flat, and once you get to the top of le Roc, there are headwinds all the way to Brest. So it’s worth being in a group for that.

I didn’t sleep enough and didn’t get there very early so I was pretty grumpy by the 2nd day. I didn’t want to ride on anyone’s wheel or let them draft me for that matter. I usually have a bad 2nd day and then get stronger as the ride goes along, so I would just drop people if they tried to draft. Most European randonneurs are fairly safe to draft with. But as always, it pays to be wary.

How you your approach change if it was a hilly 200mile ride. I’m doing a 200 mile 17,000 feet vert one day tide that is basically composed of 4 climbs. I’m halfway through sustained power build and usually do one of the interval sessions outside on the climb. I’m just wondering if i’m missing out on a key part by not doing 100-120 mile rides on the weekends to check for nutrition comfort etc…

ACE320??

Some longer rides should definitely be worked into your plan, as they help dial in your bike and nutrition setup, and also to give you confidence that you have the abilities and fitness to tackle something of this magnitude. But you needn’t (and perhaps shouldn’t) be doing 100-120 mile rides every weekend, as that will accumulate a lot of fatigue that will take away from what you can do in your structured sessions. Perhaps a hilly 60 mile ride a couple of months out, and a 100 mile ride 2-3 weeks out is all that is really necessary.

If you have reasonable access to 15-20 minute hills, then this is a pretty good way to do the structured sweet spot workouts that are a core feature of the SusPB and Century plans, but outside.

It is the ACE 320! Have you done it?

That is good to know. I was wondering what would be better bang for my buck fitness wise, the 2 hours of sweet spot or a 5 hour aerobic ride. Obviously you get the nutrition and fit benefits you mentioned with the longer outdoor rides.