Hard start VO2max intervals

[SpareCycles]

Cheers. Turns out PhDs are busy (but also very very fun!), and grant apps and articles take even longer for me to write than blog posts

@DarthShivious

Be fun if someone with the right tools took a series of different blocks and actually did the before and after VO2s and powers.

@Captain_Doughnutman

Definitely check out @SpareCycles and his website…he might have complete testing

Unfortunately I haven’t had a chance. Working more on muscle oxygenation stuff these days, not much on training prescription.

On one hand I haven’t yet encountered any hard disconfirming evidence that hard-start shouldn’t work in theory. But nor have I encountered any hard evidence that it works in practice, either.

I think my current hedged opinion would be that hard-start intervals may be too easy to go too hard, and training consistency might suffer as a result. And training consistency really is all-important. So it might be most effective in small doses, or as a ‘breakthrough’ block.

@Captain_Doughnutman

For me, I figured out that doing 1min extra of sustained power at the end of an interval was less fatiguing than doing an extra 1min hard start, so I’ll do 4 longer intervals instead of 8 shorter intervals. Find what works for you & go for it!

longer interval bout duration > number of bouts

@Captain_Doughnutman

If you aren’t maxing out, it’s not a VO2max interval.

interval intensity doesn’t seem to matter as long as it’s above FTP/CP/threshold. So maybe ‘maxing out’ isn’t strictly necessary, but working at an intensity where you could max out if you wanted to, is?

Programming Interval Training to Optimize Time-Trial Performance: A...

[Captain_Doughnutman]

Obviously with hard starts you start max and finish much lower (hopefully above FTP); the entire interval is not a max effort* but the initial max effort does need to be included.

*(not a max power effort, but definitely a max heart effort!)

[mailman]

Listening to the EC podcast and he talks about doing 370W for 4x5min when at an FTP of 280W. I understand his FTP would probably be more accurately set than most, or that is more set towards a long TTE, but that is a daunting number.

When you started doing these as proper max efforts, did you just pin it and hope, or go for 5min max, or have a number in mind?

[mailman]

To tag on to the how close to racing question.

Is there value in say a one week, highly intensive VO2 block roughly six weeks from my A-Race. That is, is one week enough (say the four sessions one week), and is it too close.

For context, we’ve just entered lockdown again here and I’m about to enter specialty. My A-Race is a 100km MTB race in late October, and my plan had been to focus on outdoor riding/trail riding from now. With the kids at home, and the trail systems closed I’m wondering if I should try and do a bump with a week of intense short rides. I’m plenty used to doing extended time on the trainer and my wife has been amazing, though I’m not sure that would extend indefinitely.

[splash]

@mailman

When you started doing these as proper max efforts, did you just pin it and hope, or go for 5min max, or have a number in mind?

If you do them the EC way, its pin it and hope. Don’t look at power or HR, but your breathing should be like a fish out of the water.

[Captain_Doughnutman]

@splash

your breathing should be like a fish out of the water

Your breathing should be like you’re hyperventilating (but you’re not).

@mailman

the EC podcast and he talks about doing 370W for 4x5min when at an FTP of 280W…that is a daunting number.

Don’t forget, he’s a sprinter so he has a HUGE anaerobic capacity & contribution helping to pump out those numbers. Also consider that his max power is something like 2,000w…370w wouldn’t be that crazy — for HIM.

You are not Kolie (or me!), pay attention to your own body!

@mailman

Is there value in say a one week, highly intensive VO2 block

Meh, probably not. Might be better to do 1-2 sessions a week for 5 weeks (but not in the 6th taper week!).

[bbarrera]

Was catching up on podcasts last week and came across this:

This was the last thread I read before seeing that, not directed at you. So many threads on this forum that will now make me think of that and want to post it

[stevemz]

Here is an example of what it should look like

Generally speaking you want to see HR rising continuously throughout the interval, with it getting above LTHR

[mailman]

Don’t you want HR to be almost max from the start?

Genuine question, when I’ve done my VO2 workouts this season I’ve tried to be a lot more diligent and whilst I get my HR (on the good workouts) very close to my max HR, I don’t get the fish/hyperventilating.

Caveat, I’ve never had luck with HR training (and I know now it’s about ignoring the metrics and going for it) but it’s nice to look back over.

@Captain_Doughnutman

Meh, probably not. Might be better to do 1-2 sessions a week for 5 weeks (but not in the 6th taper week!).

Thanks Captain.

[stevemz]

@mailman

Don’t you want HR to be almost max from the start?

No…but this is just an example of the "all out’ longer duration VO2 interval sets that EC prescribes, not specifically hard starts.

I don’t do hard starts, because I can yeet myself hard enough in the first 30s to ruin the rest of the workout (max 30s is probably in the 900-1000w range and max 1 minute power is probably close to 800w at this point)

LTHR is around 180bpm, max HR is 202, but my VO2 intervals usually end around 188-190bpm.

Also went and double checked one of his other athletes just to confirm and same looking picture

[ErickVH]

I can’t really dump my anaerobic as effectively so I have pretty hard starts. 600w spikes at 150+ RPM settling into abject suffering.

[splash]

@mailman

Don’t you want HR to be almost max from the start?

I think the hard start is to deplete your anaerobic tank and dump you into suffer territory quicker. Otherwise you could be cruising along for a couple of minutes at first, if you’re anaerobically strong. The HR response is just a consequence of what you’re doing.

Interesting to see the examples above with and without the hard start. I think you can experimemt a bit with it.

[TheBandit]

Interesting Steve, our HR numbers are nearly identical. Pretty rare, well it is for me considering my age.

I think I max out, maybe a couple bpm higher at 205.

I feel I’m around 178-181bpm at LTHR too.

Unfortunately, because it hurts a ton, I’d also agree that I need to end at 190-193bpm to be doing V02 Max correctly.

In interest sake, where do you sit for LT1/VT1?
I’m zeroing in on about 150bpm.

Cheers

[tkruger]

When I do my hard start/all out int’s I use my 5’ test power as a guide not FTP. If the intervals are 3’ or a bit more, I’ll start hard and then aim for an avg that is close or better than my 5’ test power. If they’re longer than 5’, then I’ll dial the power back a bit, but still start really hard. Evoq bike did an interview w Laurens Ten Dam and he talked about doing sim intervals once or maybe twice a season.

[stevemz]

@TheBandit

In interest sake, where do you sit for LT1/VT1?

Right around 160bpm, but it varies by day and training state, at least if I am tracking it with HRVLogger.

[anthonylane]

Back on the Hard Start train: only could muster a set of 3x4m, but added a 4th interval later in the ride. Haven’t done a session of these since mid-May. Yes, it hurt just as bad as before.

For anyone wondering, each interval went as follows:

• 20s seated full gas (= ~615-675w)
• 2min hard (325-345w)
• 2min harder (375-400w)

Observations:

• Breathing hard AF
• Pain from lactate accumulation (even felt it in my arms)
• Modulating power after the hard start can be an effective way to vary the interval. Normally I just go full gas, but experimented with easing off after the hard start (but staying 20-30w above LT). Reason for this was to gauge RPE and “ease” back into this type of work after a long lay off.

[Captain_Doughnutman]

@anthonylane

Pain from lactate accumulation

Should this be a thing with high RPM intervals?

[anthonylane]

I just asked my legs. They said “yes”. Mainly the final 90seconds when I’m trying for dear life to hold 400w.

How many of you vary the style of VO2 workouts you do? I typically only do things like 4x4, 5x5, 4x6, and don’t do 30/15 or 40/20’s, but I’m looking to mix it up.

Why do you prefer one over the other? Or do you like them both?

[bbarrera]

@anthonylane

How many of you vary the style of VO2 workouts you do?

All. The. Time. You can go shorter then 3 minutes, just up the power and drop the recovery time.

[TheBandit]

More data…

Personally, I’m just following the science. Right or wrong, it seems to work for me. Maybe other versions would be better. I just hate the idea of being a Guinea Pig when this is the most important and most difficult training I do per year.

I just aim at minutes of quality. I start at 3x3 and build to something like 5x5 or even a 6x5 for the final V02 of a build. I also begin to up the power once I can handle the same power at 5x5 that I started with at 3x3. In context, it’s a massive increase in performance over a relatively short period of time.

I don’t bother with hard start, short short or anything too complex. I’ve found that old school sustained V02Max training is the most powerful stimulus for me. It’s without doubt the most valuable minutes of training an endurance athlete can engage in.

I absolutely go fully polarized for my V02 build. Everything else is secondary. Virtually all other riding is Z2. Easy Z2 at that. Sometimes, I’ll add in a threshold effort or two on one day to keep things running. I usually only do 2 V02 sessions per week, with as much separation as possible in the week. This year I’m going to attempt 3 V02 sessions per week for the final or final 2 weeks.

I’m also going to attempt doing it for longer than I’ve ever tried it. If I don’t crack (a big if), I may try 6 to 8 weeks total. It seems, if you can tolerate it, you really will continue to make gains for a long time. These gains will be smaller the more advanced your training history.

I try to do all of my V02 work outside, I generate more power, gather more minutes and I’m forced to generate power over varied terrain. I feel this is far superior in regards to race specificity than a robotic ERG controlled effort. Generally, I think indoor training is incredibly powerful, and vastly more time efficient. However, for V02 work, I feel it could actually be significantly detrimental.

Finally, I think the huge additional value of sustained effort V02 training over other short short options is the mental training. It very much simulates actual bike racing. These repeated 2 to 6min efforts are very often the selection points, in many forms of bike racing.

Being able to tolerate more minutes of this level of suffering will only reap rewards come race day.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/350702899_Programming_Interval_Training_to_Optimize_Time-Trial_Performance_A_Systematic_Review_and_Meta-Analysis/download