Gym work - when are you strong enough?

Training
23

If you have ‘leg day’ and then go out and try to ride 100 miles, sure. But for me, personally, I am finding that getting back into lifting is actually helping even out the parts of my body that are overworked by biking so much. I think there seems to be the idea that bikers lifting are trying to be ‘body builders’, and I would highly doubt that but it is rather bizarre to look at a ‘biker’ and see their skinny emaciated arms. And people joke about it. ‘I don’t need big arms, I’m a biker’… The body seeks balance? People that aren’t professional bikers should be working on their upper body and arms more. Doing squats will help balance the hip, leg, and back musculature. NOT A BAD IDEA!

And ‘progressing indefinitely’? That’s physiologically impossible, but lifting could and probably should be seen as cross-training. But you do you…

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24

But only one right answer:

When you can crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of their women.

That’s becoming less and less politically correct isn’t it?

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25

Rather than start a new thread, this one seems pretty well suited to what I want to ask.

Where do you go if yiu are comfortably over the level 3 standard.

I’m coming to the end of SSB LV1 (pretty new to cycling) and have been strength training 2x a week, plus 1x z2 ride.

Coming from a strength background my best singles (and 5 reps) are squat 170kg (145kg), deadlift 210kg (160kg), overhead press 95kg (70kg).
There’s always talk of progressive overload but to what end.

I’ve been considering easing off the volume and weight as I go into base 2 and the build to give myself more capacity to push on the bike but at the moment it doesn’t feel like recovery is suffering.

I’m finding the thought of not pushing myself in the weight room (garden) difficult due to my history.

Anyone cut back on strength work after having decent numbers and how did it go?

26

Before becoming a father and changing jobs, I used to frequent a local gym that provided the E-gym program.

As someone who doesn’t typically enjoy gym work, this was a great solution for the following reasons:

  1. No need to move weights around, it’s all arranged through internal resistance of the machines;
  2. A full body workout if you complete the full round. Two laps of approx. 15 machines would take you around 30 - 40 minutes (doable!);
  3. Small chance of poor technical execution, which prevents injury and/or poor performance;
  4. No need to keep track of progress - it’s all done and saved technologically;
  5. Different programs for different times of the year (build, explosive, maintenance, etc.).

I found it incredibly useful and really saw results, whereas it added relatively low stress only. You progress but not through massive steps and are really in charge of your own program.

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27

It’s time to put more focus on your bike training.

Maintain strength with minimal lifting, once per week.

You’re new to cycling, so I would transition slowly across. LV is a great place to start, monitoring recovery is the right approach so you are doing the right things already.

If I had advice in one word it would be ‘patience’. Cycling gains look and feel different to strength gains. My few years of lifting heavy felt like a lot more immediate return - you lift hard, struggle feel great at what you achieved at the end of that session. Cycling is more about the whole week/month/season.

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29

Hi, thanks for your input.
Do i need to be one or the other? Can i be a person that enjoys both but has a newer more recent interest in cycling and wants to improve endurance.

Regarding overhead pressing, simple answer is health and overall balance. Cycling does very little for shoulders, upper back and posture and so some rows, and over head pressing help with posture and overall structural health. Plus I like it and it doesn’t take away from cycling (i only do 3x5 once a week of each exercise).

I want to be faster on the bike, who doesn’t, but i am not trying to be age category world champ etc so a bit of balance in body and mind are much better for my longevity in this that a hyper focus on one thing.

I’m just trying to work out if I’m at the point of easing off lifting i.e not pushing as hard, is where i am now given coach chads guidelines or is there is any benefit to holding on to this “extra” strength.

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30

After further deliberation i think i know my answer.

I will reduce the intensity of my lifting sessions a little in anticipation of entering build and monitor fatigue. Maintaining current strength should free up some stress to focus on cycling.

I enjoy lifting as well as cycling, and as much as i want to get faster, i don’t want to go all in and burn out (mentally). Being quite new i’d like to think there are plenty of gains on the table on LV.

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32

Wow.

Let’s just leave this here then.

Have a nice day.

33

I’m chiming in very late. But I think I have a bit of experience with this.

I primarily lift and use cycling and running for general fitness / cardio. When I first started focusing on cycling instead of running, I joined TR. At the time, I was lifting six days a week on a three-day split (two leg days). Leg days involved ~120 reps spread over 12-16 sets (depending on the day).

I started SSB 1 and 2 LV. My initial plan was to do my best to avoid cycling on leg days. I then amended that plan to avoid cycling the day after leg day, and to do my best to avoid it on leg day and the day before leg day. As you can imagine, I ran out of days (damn weeks only have seven of them). It meant that there was one day a week I was cycling that was either on leg day or the day before it. But that was still better than cycling the day after a leg day.

That plan ended up working great. I had already gotten close to plateauing my leg lifts (without adding calories and gaining weight). During SSB 1 and 2, I lost no strength. My FTP from ramp tests continued to rise, too (significantly). It was great, if tiring. Some days were tough, no question.

Then I started the build phase. Everything fell apart. I overtrained. I got weaker in my leg lifts (on some days, 25% weaker), and I was routinely failing TR workouts. I kept at it for three weeks. But it just got worse. I decided to stress cycling and focus less on leg lifts (I dropped one of the two leg days). Sadly, because I never rested after the initial overtraining, it didn’t matter. I didn’t recover. Three more weeks later, I was done. I stopped all cardio and only lifted four days a week (dropped both leg days). I waited two months to reincorporate leg days and two running days.

I never figured out if it was the whole leg day and cycling thing, or if it was that I was just not “built” for the build phase. I am older than you (45). And I’ve read other posts about people in my age group and older that struggle with the build phase without any lifting. But I have to think the two were related.

If I were to ever repeat it (I haven’t; it was that bad; I felt terrible those three weeks, and everything suffered), I would dial back leg day to once a week, and I would dial back the number of sets and reps (maybe 6 sets of 12 reps at weights that I could complete all reps, i.e., avoiding complete fatigue). I feel like that load would have worked.

I never restarted structured cycling training. I ride for fun with friends, and that’s it. While I’m sure my FTP is way lower than it was, I still think it’s higher than when I started. I lost a lot but not all. I run for cardio now.

My $.02, which is probably worth even less than that.

Will

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34

Thanks dude, really helpful and useful insight based on experience.

Do you think it was just a case of too much volume on you’re legs when lifting?

120 reps across 12 sets is around 10 reps a set?
Just curious. I’m currently 3 leg exercises, 50 reps across 10 sets to heavier but less volume.

What you have helped with is how build may impact me whilst still lifting and so I can be a little more aware of how I’m feeling.

Just through base 1 I have noticed if I eat more (3500 -4000 cal a day) and fuel during the rides (75g/hr) it’s not as hard to string days together and not feel wrecked.
I think Alex vaida mentioned eating lots of doing endurance and lifting, and de alex H helped with bike fueling, not just for the ride I’m on but to get ready for the next workout.

Will certainly keep an eye on how I’m feeling as I move to base 2 and in to build and try to catch it before I get too far into a hole, if that happens.

Thanks again for you thoughts and experience

35

Man- you are strong on the bike and in the weight room. Great numbers!

If your main goal is to ride faster and to strength train 2x a week then I would dial down the volume and intesity on the leg lifts, and continue to build bike fitness. So to answer your question- go into a “maintenance mode” (at least for the legs).

If I were you, I would switch to a 2x a week full body program with a focus on the primary movements (squat, hinge, push, pull, carry). And continue to smash your TR program as you build bike fitness.

Don’t stop lifting, your older self will thank you (speaking from experience).

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36

Cheers.

My lifts/ routine is pretty much based on that so it looks like managing volume will be the trick as bike intensity ramps up.

Are there any signs I can look out for? How will I notice I’m over training?

If I’m nailing workouts of increasing PL without dying, and strength work is not decreasing (not necessarily increasing but I’m at a point where I need additional focus to make noticeable strength gains) I assume I’m ok?

37

Your cadence and/or power output will start to get really inconsistent in the last intervals. This is where you need more sleep/recovery/food and if you take it then you’ll be fine in the next workout.

If you ignore the previous signs….You’ll have to start taking breaks during workouts and come back.

Then, if you keep going as you are, you’ll stop wanting to get on the bike and/or struggle with endurance rides. Blame “sweet spot” and/or TR and stop cycling or go to another approach.

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38

Dude, super helpful.

Thanks again.

Funnily, has a 3x15 @ 90% yesterday and it’s almost as if it started to feel moderate instead of hard.
Having such an anaerobic background I find shorter efforts much easier so to get 3x15 @ 90% without dying or was an achievement.
Starting to feel a little tired but I just finished week 5 so I guess it’s expected.

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39

Your experience definitely evolves over time, I’ve been using TR exclusively for bike training for six years and some workouts seemed impossible at the start. Sweet spot now feels easy where some people find them hard or ‘high intensity’ in the early days.

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40

Yea. That’s how I am, generally anything over 15-18 mins feels horrible but endurance is so new to me.

That being said, 10 mins was horrible 5 weeks ago haha.

I have a easy week next week and it’s on to base 2. Interested to see what vo2 work feels like.

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41

I agree with this sentiment. TR user since 2018, and when I started SSBLVI, I would dread those long intervals on the 1:30 workout. A few years later and many threshold/VO2max workouts later, the Sweet Spot is almost a relief to see on the calendar.

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42

Haha, I’m not quite at the relief point yet but I’m sure it’ll happen one day.

I’m just so happy to make it through base 1.
I actually am looking forward to an easier week, which falls perfectly for a few family engagements.

30/30s are something I’ve never done but am looking forward to so roll on base 2

We’ll see how the legs hold up

43

I don’t think counting reps and sets is the only variable. My workouts had varying reps per set. Some were 6 reps; some were 14. To me, the key was going to fatigue / working the muscles so much that they needed time to rebuild. It is the difference between building muscle and maintaining what’s there (I think some others have referred to this). I will note that doing low rep / high weight sets to fatigue is usually for building significant muscle.

I also don’t think fuel alone can fix the problem. You can consume all the calories you want and be careful about macros, etc. And for both cycling and lifting that will help (with cycling, to fuel the workouts, with lifting to provide the building blocks to build the muscle). But that will not mitigate the simple fact that once you fatigue the muscle and “break it down,” it needs time to rebuild. The greater degree you do that, the more rest you’ll need.

I do think your approach is right - watch carefully how you feel and how you perform during both. Then, instead of doing what I did, adjust before it’s too late.

But I will add that my experience (and I have no medical or exercise science degree) taught me that power lifting / trying to build significant muscle in my legs and improve cycling performance are incompatible. Translated to your workouts, that means low rep / high weight leg lifts to fatigue and training to get faster are on a bike will leave you over trained and worse off for both.

If I had it to do all over again, during TR build, I would shoot for one leg day a week, with three exercises, three sets of each, 12-14 reps per set. And while I want to feel it, I’d pick a weight that I could complete all sets (i.e., not to failure). And I’d make that day as isolated from the cycling as possible (before and after). Finally, remember, there are different muscles in your legs. Don’t just work your quads. Don’t just work your hamstrings. Don’t just work your calves. Etc. When I say three exercises, I mean hit them all with those three. Don’t just kill one.

I’ll also say that, given the weight ranges you’re at, unless you’re riding the heaviest bike ever created (by a large margin), your leg strength is not limiting your cycling ability. I just assumed your goal was not to lose any of that strength while also increasing your cycling ability.

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44

Hm, I’ve never associated that specifically with overtraining but it’s something I’m familiar with towards the end of vo2 workouts or towards the end of a 20 minute test.

Legs: “This sucks!”
Brain: “Ok, here” shift
Legs: “This sucks, too!”

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