I’m starting to think that’s the problem. Saturday is not a petty good day for these, as it’s my third in a row workout. I need a rest day before. At 48 I just don’t recover as quickly any more.
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I’m more interested in this: if you can do a threshold level 6.0 if it’s steady state or over/unders but you can’t do one of these - are these scored correctly? Maybe it is for some people but not others, so it’s a bit tricky.
We’ve long known with AT that you can’t compare scores between energy systems (ie: Threshold 4.0 and VO 4.0 won’t necessarily be the same difficulty for you). So when a workout is mixing two systems like this, I think the whole premise of scoring it as a Threshold workout gets a bit shaky.
I’d say it’s probably just a case of where you need to know thyself and adjust accordingly if needed.
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This. so much.
I’ve been there, suffered the same for 2 training blocks until my ego accepted simple fact: FTP level was too high, mainly because I’m an anaerobic type of athlete and ramp tests tends to overestimate (at least for me).
Unfortunately, the AI as it is now does not help to get out of this rotten cycle: failed workouts - less motivation to even start these hard workouts - stagnation or decline. Don’t think it will just go away and you will just work it out.
The only solution for me was to shut down my ego and manually decrease the FTP by 20W (7%). It was like a salvation: finally I stopped to be scared of 90 min FTP workouts, they were manageable (in good days) and doable (in worse days). After a while the Progression Levels stabilized and FTP came back to the expected level.
Sooner you realize this sooner you will stop being frustrated of the trainings. It took me 2 absolutely wasted months until I understood.
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I mostly agree with you but I also think the duration and ERG (at least on Elite Trainers) has something to do with it. I was comfortably holding higher 20mins test FTP’s on sub 60mins workouts done in resistance mode but struggled when I started using ERG for longer (90mins) workouts. Initially with AIFTP I persevered with ERG but for 90mins workout I’d still struggle. However, now I am doing them in Resistance mode AIFTP feels spot on. Its probably IMC due to the extreme variability of the Elite Suito sometimes and its subsequent handling of ERG. It just seemed to bite away at me, which was fine for an hour at even higher intensities but over an hour it was maybe part psychological I was dragged into the spiral of death. Coincidentally whilst my first AIFTP figures were akin to my 20mins tests, after it was revised its now about 6% lower and 11% higher than the ramp.
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As per @Upcountry I would be looking to choose a plan that has more sweet spot and tempo in it, to boost those progression numbers. I generally don’t choose any plan above sweet spot base part 2 (so that’s sweet spot, threshold and VO2 on low vol) until I am very close to race season. And I absolutely flog these base plans until my sweet spot it 7+.
That said, I have struggled with any session that contains some kind of steady effort with big spikes (bigger than under/over peaks). I also think such sessions are difficult to do in erg mode. Neither do they suit me. And yes I could keep trying or reducing the intensity, but I select sessions that train the individual elements and will try to race in a way that doesn’t expose my weaknesses.
Training needs to be sustainable and achievable mentally. So if you keep failing these sessions look at doing something else. And you don’t have to come back to these sessions. It’s not written in stone that because the computer has selected them that they’re the only thing you can do at this point!
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Took me three years 
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I agree with your sentiment here but level 6 is fairly high for threshold. I think the average productive threshold workout is around 5.
I’m basing this on the behaviour of AI FTP detection. If I’m at a stage where I’m completing level 5 then FTP detection will probably return my current FTP - but if I am completing level 6 then I would expect AI FTP detection to give me a modest bump up.
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I use PL pretty religiously and always find some outlier workouts. This may be one of them. I like to compare IF within similar PL around similar times. In this example, Threshold 5.9 for 1:15min it has the highest IF so it’s maybe wrongly classified. I’m seeing .93IF for 1:15 Threshold workouts around PL 6.6
@jbakkane determining where your heart rate at failure could help pinpoint the issue.
If you’ve maxed out your heart rate it could point to your FTP being too high alternatively if heart rate is at threshold may suggest better coping strategies to manage the discomfort or you may be carrying too much fatigue.
I always find the first and last set of threshold the most uncomfortable, theres no internal debate in my head of should or shouldn’t I , for me it’s a mandatory exercise of managing deep slow breathing, sometimes holding my breath for a few seconds. Wiggling my fingers which relaxes my arms and shoulders and a focus on form. Oh trying to meditate, visualising a beautiful garden, feeling the wind on my face, the smell of the flowers, sounds of bees and birds and the trickle of running water.
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And my reward is dropping me to 4.4.
Hard to believe.
What was your longset SS session in thershold zone (over 90% of FTP)?
You can fake out the AI estimation with 30/30 Vo2 intervals where you gain muscles but not cardiac stamina.
Instead Pavilion try some real endurance workout.
Maybe 2* 45’ SS:
9* (1’@95% - 4’@87%) - 3’ rest@40% - 9* (1’@95% - 4’@87%)
I think you’re a bit confused on this. The label associated with the workout is personal, depending on your progression level. The “productive” tag is associated with any workout that is within 1.0 of your current progression level, while “stretch” is anything with a 1.0 to 3.0 higher level than your current progression level in that area. So for you a “productive” threshold is a 5.0, but if you were to be at progression level 6.0, then that same workout would be tagged as “achievable”.
Ive always found 90 min threshold workouts really really tough. While able to complete 60 min workouts of similar PLs.
Threshold…sucks!
Maybe give another Threshold 5.9 1:15min workout with a lower IF a chance and see what happens
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I like Long SupraThresholds but man over-unders just BLOW
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Lol, my Threshold levels were rising for my 90mins workouts before a rest week (5.6 being the last) whilst I never failed any of them for some reason post my workouts (it may be that I added B races to my calendar) the PL was reduced to 2.4 after the recent rest week. Not that I’m complaining
I don’t use HR any more, it gets in the way of my training as I’m always thinking, it’s too high or too low for what I’m doing. Not using one has been liberating.
I’m pretty sure I’m not fatigued as I only do 4-7 hrs a week. I think I’m just doing this on the wrong day.
I’ve been watching the Mandalorian, but I should probably just do music for these, as I probably need to focus on all those great tricks you’re mentioning. Thanks for that, I’ll try those as well.
These are great suggestions, but I don’t want to deviate from the TR plan. I’m giving AI detection and adaptations a try. So I want to stick to that.
Maybe next year, I’ll start off with more SS. But at this point I’m too close to my event, I’m not changing gears.
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TR gave me one of these mish-mash workouts (Robion at 5.0), I failed it, it dropped me down all the way to Creise at 3.5 the next week. I managed Creise but still Very Hard… and it turned out this was my all-time highest power for 90 minutes, so I think maybe TR is being very aggressive/optimistic about these.