Extensive FTP interval progression

From my understanding you can dial it back to 95% and still get the majority of the benefits, so that might be worth giving a whirl and seeing how you recover versus doing them at 100%. Feeling strong during the workout but then taking a long time to recover sort of makes me think there’s something missing recovery-wise though- there are a lot of potential culprits there, but a few off the top of my head;

  • Sleep- fairly self-explanatory.
  • Post-workout nutrition- I wouldn’t stress too much about exact timing, but you definitely want to prioritise hydration glycogen replenishment for the rest of the day.

  • The rest of your training plan- might be some adjustments needed to the length/intensity of your other rides if the threshold sessions take priority. (same goes for lifting, other sports, etc.)

(More or less applicable to all workouts, but I’d say longer FTP sessions are on the more demanding side and have a little less ‘margin for error.’ It’s easy to get lost in the small details, but recovery-wise I think it’s sometimes better to take a more general approach when it comes to what you’re doing day in, day out, and whether there’s any obvious areas for improvement.)

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Yesterday, I did my next workout. I tried 2x20 @ 90-95%. It was easily completed. I could have done another. Today I’m zonked out tired. I’m not wrecked. I could easily jump on the bike and doing another 2x20 if I had to but I wouldn’t want to dig a fatigue hole.

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OK. Now continue to eat like a hungry horse and see how you feel after another good night’s sleep.

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I’ve found doing longer 20+ min intervals far easier at 90-95% vs 100%. Earlier this year I did a block of sweet spot(90%) and worked my way up to 60 min intervals and never felt like I was in a hole for the next workout. Compare that to my current block of ftp intervals at 100% and I very much felt the fatigue accumulating. I made it to a 3x20 then a single 30 min interval the following workout before my quads had just completely quit.

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That table in the comment above is in a book cowritten by my wife who is an RD, CSSD, if that helps.

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I know a few of the leading researchers in the performance nutrition field who would at least beg to differ. I think it’s at the very least open for debate if fine-grained recommendations are useful to the population.

For some folks there absolutely is. Unequivocally.

45g/hr optimizes performance for almost zero humans out past 4 hours.
A great many folks can indeed measure performance benefit by exceeding 90g/hr all the way up through 130-140g/hr with a few outlier cases beyond that.

Gut training works. It’s not equivocal. It’s just not known to be universally massive. But it can happen remarkably quickly and is very measurable. In under a week there can be greater gut comfort absorbing high carb solution, probably due to greater transporter expression on gut membranes. I have an email from a very smart and accomplished researcher in this arena saying they’re going to be looking into the time course of gut adaptations in the future because during some pilot testing for another study, they saw some alarmingly fast results. (single session exposures to high carbs resulting in dramatically enhanced gut comfort). This is a very new area of research so it’s understandable if results are mixed. Gut training will never be a panacea, but the big thing it may do it convince people to actually practice fueling and hydration implementation year round, and stop trying to wing it on race day. :slight_smile:

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Feel free to point to any studies that have directly tested such fine gradations.

Again, citations welcome.

Not according to those who have reviewed the literature.

(BTW, don’t you have a financial interest in promoting higher rates of carbohydrate supplementation, via sales s of an app?)

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Lest I be accused of hypocrisy:

“The effect of gut-training and feeding-challenges on the incidence and severity of Ex-GIS were assessed using different tools (n = 6). Significant improvements in total, upper, and lower gastrointestinal symptoms were observed (n = 2), as well as unclear results (n = 4). No significant changes in gastric emptying rate (n = 2), or markers of intestinal injury and permeability were found (n = 3). Inconclusive results were found in studies that investigated plasma inflammatory cytokine concentration in response to exercise with increased carbohydrate feeding (n = 2).”

I think in all aspects of healthcare, coaching etc… it is a balance between using evidence based medicine/practice and the “art” of coaching/providing treatment. From the article that was just cited (The meta analysis) - their conclusion wasn’t particularly strong in either direction:

“Overall, gut-training or feeding-challenge around exercise may provide advantages in reducing gut discomfort, and potentially improve carbohydrate malabsorption and Ex-GIS, which may have exercise performance implications.”

So, a nutritionist or coach must use/synthesize this AND real world coaching experience practice in order to get the best performance from their athletes (or healthcare practitioners in terms of getting their patient’s better.). Solely using evidence can never be used to treat or coach someone neither should clinical or coaching experience solely be used. It takes both things.

So finding relevant citations might help with an argument but unless you are actually coaching or providing nutritional advice to cyclists you are missing half the boat. Whether @Dr_Alex_Harrison has an app or not - he’s not the only one providing advice to eat while training - and hopefully his wife who is an RD is using evidence as a framework - but is also using years of doling out nutritionist advice to help her patients/athletes. @The_Cog - you (admittedly) not a coach or a nutritionist - so only citing sources is an incomplete view of how coaching/nutrition/performance actually works in the real world. The lab is the lab - and has a place (an important one), but using real world experience is also important.

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I stated that the scientific evidence that the gut is trainable is somewhat equivocal. That review from earlier this year supports my point. Practitioners like Alex may choose to believe otherwise, but as I indicated originally, their recommendations aren’t really science-based.

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Perhaps it’s not your FTP if you can’t do 60 mins?

I believe the definition of FTP is the power you can sustain for about an hour.

:slight_smile:

Not this again :face_with_peeking_eye::face_with_peeking_eye::face_with_peeking_eye:

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ABOUT and hour, but can vary from 30 something minutes to up to 70 mins.

image

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The following was written hastily and any failure to empathize and ‘remember the human’ in my writing is due to a shortage of time and bandwidth, but I hope that it will be read with the understanding that I respect you @The_Cog, and don’t intend to disparage you as a person. I want to tread carefully here because it takes a great effort to attend to respectful and empathic debate, while stating claims and any refutations clearly. If there is any disagreement, or sharpness of tone, it is because of content and approach, and not because of you personally.

I’ll bow out of this discussion here after this post, for reasons of bandwidth.

I chose my words carefully. I was refuting the absolutism of your claim.

I said “open for debate” because you said “It should be noted that such fine-grained recommendations are not really research-based,” which feels very absolute.

Asking for citations to support one side of the debate when I’m claiming that at least the debate should be allowed to be open, based on researcher opinion, and not citations, feels a bit like a strawman.

As in, it feels like you misunderstood my position and misrepresented it, or chose to misrepresent it, which is understandable, because I sometimes do use very circuitous language, and for that, I apologize.

If either of those are not true, I suspect it’s me not quite understanding what claim you are attempting to attend to by asking for citations in response to my assertion about researcher opinion.

There are none. My claim was based purely on personal conversations I have had with researchers and athletes. I should have clarified that.

This feels a wee bit like ad hominem, given my profession. (Sport physiologist PhD, specializing in fueling and hydration strategy during endurance exercise). In case you were not aware that was my profession, this would not be ad hominem. But I suspect you are aware, given your knowledge of my recent company venture and my long posting history on related topics in this forum. To claim that a researcher has not read the literature in their particular field when they are stating that they have, is a bit sharp.

In any case, rest assured that I have reviewed the literature.

In fact, I have long used internet forums like this one as a place to test my ideas about the literature against a relatively willing combative or intentionally contrarian audience. I appreciate you engaging and apologize if it feels like baiting. I did not intent to bait here, but rather to clarify what I viewed as some claims that were stated too strongly and absolutely.

You chose one paragraph to cite which made things sound equivocal, but left out something important that immediately followed:

Conclusions
…gut-training or feeding-challenge around exercise may provide advantages in reducing gut discomfort, and potentially improve carbohydrate malabsorption and Ex-GIS, which may have exercise performance implications.

What you cited pertained only to a few of the physiological mechanisms these researchers reported on in the abstract.

More globally, when several studies find no results from something, and other studies find some results, it doesn’t mean the research findings are equivocal. If that were true, then virtually all interventions, including training, would be found to be equivocal because there are countless studies finding no improvement in fitness ability after various training protocol. You just never read those studies because nobody shares them or talks about them. And lots of those types of studies just never get published because it feels sheepish as a researcher in exercise science to have designed a test protocol that does nothing and then to publicize it, if the goal of the researcher was to tease out differences between protocol.

Study design and statistical power limitations are the bane of sport science’s existence, and there are virtually always studies that point to either side of any debate.

In something as new of a concept as gut training for increased carb absorption during exercise, we can expect more than half the literature to fail at finding anything positive for a while. But careful review of all the literature I think paints a clear picture, as did the researchers of the review you cited.

I’m not sure I feel comfortable going study-for-study with you for the following reasons:

  1. You imply I haven’t reviewed the literature.
  2. You misuse and cherry-pick quotes from citations where the authors come to the opposite conclusion you’re trying to make. When cherry-picking, which is sometimes useful, and I’m not saying I do it well, it is important to at least provide rationale for why a quote is chosen and others are ignored.
  3. Bandwidth reasons. (see company discussion below!)

No. Our app has several settings which can actually limit the carb amounts to below the amounts recommended in the literature. This is critically important for folks who don’t have much experience in higher carb fueling, who simply prefer a lower carb approach, or who have blood sugar dysregulation, metabolic disease of some kind, or substantial history of body composition struggles.

In fact, the most common report from our users is not that they’re surprised by how much carb they should be consuming, but rather that they’re surprised by how much water and sodium they need.

I do have a financial interest in people believing that there is something to be gained from personalization of carb, sodium, and water intake, and that it doesn’t have to be a huge amount of math to get things optimized because an app can do it for you.

If you’ll allow me, I’d like to bask in your profit motive claim as a major compliment, if I may. If feels like the time I was accused of wearing a 50 pound pack on Strava when I took a descent KOM from someone. Kind of like ‘you know you’ve done something special when…’

It’s the little things like this that really keep a guy going when there is not yet profit (yes, there is income, just far short of profit). :rofl:

It’s the first time someone has claimed “profit motive” as an argumentation tactic in debate with me, and I’ve sort of been waiting for this moment as a marker of “we’ve made it onto the radar” as a company.

So, thank you.

I humbly posit that my posting history on this site and others long predates any notion that I would someday create an app that helps people fuel. And I think I’ve been very consistent in my stances, or very clear when they’ve changed and for what reason. I’d encourage you to review my stances on carbs, sodium, and water, over the years, as I’ve made them very public in this forum and others. I’ve been an ardent adherent to what is in the literature (science), and the synthesis of available real world experience with that literature. I attempt to be pretty clear on what basis I am standing on, whenever I make a claim. When I am not clear on my bases, I can always be asked to clarify, and am purely attempting brevity (and failing badly at it, as I have here) by not always stating the basis on which I stake a claim.

Here is a clarification on my view on gut training:

Gut training works, it is unequivocal. That was my original comment here. But, that does not mean it is the primary thing people need to be focused on. They should focus on implementation strategy. It turns out that getting folks to do gut training is one way that companies are selling more powder, because what it’s actually doing is getting folks to focus on practicing implementation of higher carb strategies more often, in the name of gut training.

More than 90% of fuel & hydration issues come from problems of implementation, and not intrinsic limits in gut absorptive ability. And if you want a statement from me that really drives people to purchase an app that customizes fuel and hydration details for you, then there you have it. :slight_smile: Please feel free to claim profit motive. I have no way of untying my company from such a statement because it underlies our core vision and mission.

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Then it seems that we are in agreement. Fine-grained recommendations for carbohydrate supplementation are not really research-based.

I was alluding to the review that i subsequently cited, nothing more.

Oops, guess we’re not in agreement after all. As that review indicates, it is still equivocal, at least if you favor scientific studies over anecdotes. Could that change in the future? Sure, but that’s not now.

I don’t care what others conclude, I care what data actually show. In this instance, I quoted the sentences from the abstract enumerating the various studies and showing how the results are split (but leaning negative). I also provided the citation so that anyone else can read it for themselves and come to their own conclusion (as they should).

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Bingo

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I meant stuff like this:

Asker’s recommendations are also really more fine-grained than can be supported based on the literature (although the shading/overlapping bars do provide some indication of the uncertainty).

Personally, and recognizing that there is considerable individual variation, I would just break it down to:

less than 1 h: nothing/mouth rinse/small amount
1-5 h: 45-90 g/h
more than 5 h: >90 g/h

That said, once upon a time I studied myself (in a rather detrained state) during exercise to fatigue at 70% of VO2max, and after the expected initial increase my plasma glucose levels drifted steadily downward even though I ingested glucose at an average rate of 119 g/h.