All previous posts are helpful and I second them, but descending ultimately comes down to your willingness to take risk (and crash). Don’t be stupid about it.
I see some KOM downhills where they would be on the obituary if a car pops out around the corner.
IMO looking where you want to go, taking corners properly and using all the road you have available to you (staying in your lane or using the whole thing) matters. Also, never touch brakes and sprint through rollers or spots where you decelerate because it’s all about momentum.
I find that I am much less scared when I see someone taking a line successfully without being anywhere close to the limit. So practicing with more experienced riders helps me a lot.
Apart from a light tough, don’t make any jerky inputs to the handlebars or brakes. Usually your tires have way more grip than you give them credit for, and e. g. braking suddenly can break traction and cause you to crash.
For what it is worth, I am an alright descender, but if some of my team mates put the pedal to the metal, they will often be able to leave me behind. However, I have a family with kids and don’t want to become a premature organ donor. So I wouldn’t do anything stupid. For example, I don’t chase any Strava downhill segments for that reason.
Just what he said but I dont think you can over state the weight on the inside handle bar. Practice it when you’re out solo and you’ll find those tight niggly corners sooo much easier and smoother
Yes, late apex is always the way to go, because it means you go into the corner slower to get out faster. If your view is blocked, you stay outside for as long as you need untill you can see the end of the corner.
I recommend the books from Keith Code (motorcycle) to understand the “soft science” of cornering a 2 wheeled vehicle.
I think I look to my exit rather than an apex with corners not being perfectly the same or clearly visible and traffic. This video I think explains what I do on bends but I’m a bit cautious through them and often continue to ease up until I can see that exit point before powering out so whilst focusing on exit seems to be safer its not the fastest!
When I have clear and long visibility, or it’s a race, where it’s safe to cross into other lane, wide in, wide out. But a large majority of the time it’s a blind turn in a non-competitive situation. Hug the yellow/white line.
3:07 into your video is what I’m trying to have him avoid. And then later about the exit is great actionable advice.
I’m not talking about late apexing. And I’m trying to avoid those terms as the OP needs to get the basics down first. It’s a feel thing and explaining without visuals is confusing. The video @HLaB posted explains it well.
Also, NONE of it is safe in the wet. And that’s where motorcycle differs from bicycle. We don’t have wide rubber contact.
There are almost always trees where I live. I’m trying to exit the turn on my side of the road without losing all my speed. Looking long isn’t about seeing/focusing on what’s down the road as much as it is an aid to control (like mentioned above, fewer visuals coming into your brain that amplifies how fast you perceive you are going). Also, seeing or having a mental model of your exit, more important than apex.
In the wet, just lose all your speed and don’t lean. Who cares. It’s wet. Save it for another day.
In a competitive situation. In the real world, it’s terrible advice and the exact type of tip I am trying to steer the OP clear of. Not hating on Tommy Danielson. The way he explains is really good, on a closed road.
Eyes well forward
Never look where you don’t want to go
Brake early not late
Don’t exceed your comfort zone - its a hobby
I spent years pushing my wife and teaching her how to go faster downhill and how to corner (*). She was solid for women cat 3/4 but I wanted her to have an advantage. Finally she said: “I’m not losing ground to the other ladies and don’t want to go any faster”. Which is absolutely fine.
(*) Everyone has a limit. I have buddies teaching me new tricks on dirt. Riding with some enduro expert/pros and they dust me. There is no way I’m ever going as fast as they do. Love the tips and lessons though.
I started road biking about 5 years ago. Previous to that, I had ridden MTB for 5 years. I found the transition to road quite easy.
In MTB, you are turning all the time on trails where the surface is unpredictable, and the corners are varied in terms of how tight they are, the turning radius can vary during the turn, and there is often poor visibility through the exit due to trees. Basically, you’re in an environment where you get a huge amount of experience/reps taking turns. Also, you get very comfortable with bike handling, bike-body separation, leaning the bike, etc.
Yes, road riding is different, but it’s harder to get a lot of reps on turning due to roads having less turns than MTB trails. So takes longer to get up the learning curve.
A long way of saying you should pick up mountain biking . And put a dropper post on your road bike.
This video explains perfectly what I was trying to say about the trees!
I guess this is where I get it totally confused - I was associating good descenders or good cornering with riders who made it look so easy always taking the best line always carrying so much speed. In reality, these good descenders and good cornering rides probably know the descent and the turns and that’s why they can go so fast. Or is this wrong?!
Can we trail brake on our bicycles? What brake are you guys hovering on while you have committed on a turn (after all primary braking has been done)?
Wow I read the entire thread and I am understanding more but I am also confused. He counter steers by pushing the handlebar where he wants to go. I was told counter steering is a push in the opposing direction to make the bike tip into the other direction???
Counter steering is something you need to wrap your head around and practice. I have been doing it without knowing at times and now I am practicing it consciously when I can. The point is that you can safely make a stronger steering input in the desired direction afterwards, it feels as if the first input “in the wrong direction” breaks things loose and then you can steer more easily in the desired direction. Also, when I say “input in the wrong direction”, don’t necessarily picture that you have to swerve in the wrong direction, you don’t even have to add a “wobble.”
Very solid list.
One more thing: in normal conditions you can rarely take the fastest line on the road since you have to anticipate oncoming traffic and the fastest line usually requires you to use the full width of the road.
My goal for practicing cornering is to push up my skills so my 80 % effort while corning moves up and I don’t have to take large risks to keep up with others. Or, alternatively, I have to use less of my skills to maintain the same speed.
you are correct, on a 2 wheeled vehicle, you initiate the turn by a slight turn to the opposite side you want the bike to lean to. After the bike leans over, it will steer into the turn. To get the bike upright again, you steer into the turn. On a bicycle this is such low effort it’s almost imperceivably. Move on to a 400 pound motorcycle and it gets very profound.
preferably, all braking is done upright. THat said, it you release the brake on a descend, you will accelerate due to gravity. Trail braking is mostly done with the rear wheel, as you don’t want to overload the front tire which is already getting a higher load due to the downward slope, weight transfer and higher cornering force. Trail braking is not to slow down more, it is to not speed up too much. As said, do all (or 99%) of braking upright as possible. But hover both brakes. If it turns out you misjudged your entry, stand the bike upright, use both brakes to scrub as much speed as possible, then release the brakes and turn again.
Counter steering: find an empty, straight and flat piece of road. Get up to a steady speed, doesn’t have to be fast, a bit more than walking pace is enough. Both hands on bars, elbows slightly bent. Now just apply pressure to your right hand by straightening your right arm, doesn’t have to be much - the front wheel will point slightly left, the bike will lean to the right slightly (you don’t!) and you will turn to the right. Remove the pressure and do the same on the left and you’ll return to the upright position and if you continue to apply pressure on the left side you will turn left.
Doing the above actually initiates a series of body adjustments that help in the turn: your inside shoulder begins to drop and the outside shoulder moves forward to compensate, that in turn starts to turn your hips to point in the direction of the corner (laser c*ck!). That’s much easier to do if your outside foot is at the bottom of the pedal stroke. All these work together but often people mistake one, usually the hip movement, as the initiator so you get told to “point the hips”.
I can’t remember if it was on here or a different forum but someone posted a couple of pictures, one was of a motorbike cornering and the other a pedal cycle, they were overlain with graphics showing the angles of both rider and bike. The pedal cyclist was much more upright than their bike because their mass was greater than that of the bike and that applied pressure through the contact point into the ground rather than across it.
A few years ago I did an MTB skills course and the instructor followed us down an easy trail - his comment to everyone was that we approached corners wrong: we would go in too fast and exit slowly whereas you should enter the corner slower than you think and let the corner slingshot you out faster.
Like any physical skill cornering takes practice. Learn on more open corners before you head at full tilt into a series of hairpins. You’ll also find you corner better one way than the other.
. And put a dropper post on your road bike.