Confused about lifting recovery

Training
21

Nobody said you can’t be strong and fast. It’s about how you get there. Focusing on strength like he is as someone with what appears to be limited volume capacity and having trouble recovering isn’t going to help if his main goal is getting faster on the bike, and keeping up better with his group rides.

100% agree on being a stronger, all around athlete rather than a 4.7 w/kg stick figure. I personally am probably carrying 20# or more muscle than the “cyclist” build on my frame and am doing my best to NOT lose it as I ramp volume, but I started stronger and am trying to get faster.

22

Sadly, consistency really does pay off - I’ve been inconsistent for years and had progress but definitely slower than one might expect. The one thing I was consistent with was TR plans and my bike improved quickly and over years.

I agree with your desire to lift, but I would look at twice a week with less load - that should give you the most benefit/least cost. Maybe split deadlifts from squats across sessions.

23

Huge fan of deadlifts here too. I do squats and deadlifts, and that’s pretty much it for lower body but they’re also great for back, core, shoulders and to keep me from tweaking my back or something else. I’m in the same boat as you that I don’t recover super quickly, so during the season I’ve just taken to focusing on 3 sets of 10 for each, where I’m able to finish all 3 sets at maybe a 7/10 RPE for the last rep. For squats, I really go deep too. I feel that helps with flexibility, and range of motion in the hips.

During the season they’re usually done right after one of my harder bike workouts and maintaining that 7-8/10 RPE in post-bike-workout condition which makes them more of a maintenance lift, but I even cut them out entirely during certain blocks (e.g. just finished a VO2 block with no leg lifting). Starting in the fall through early winter I’ll try and ramp up more weight and intensity while I’m doing less bike intensity.

24

If cycling performance is important to you, I don’t believe in the “lift 1 time per week” philosophy…that’s too far apart to get to the point where your legs are not killing you after every lift session. You need to lift 2 times per week, say Sunday and Wednesday and back down on the number of sets and/or weights. For cycling I like deadlifts, Bulgarian split squats, and lunges. The deadlifts really strengthen the lower back for low cadence, big watt output on the bike.

25

I’m in bed for ~8 hours, but my sleep sucks. It definitely affects my recovery. Sometimes awake in the middle of the night for around an hours. But also lots of little wake up and light sleep that leaves me waking up tired. Actively trying to figure out the issue but not luck yet.

26

I’m the same. But, I think totally undisturbed sleep is like a perfect TR workout graph. Especially with an aging cat and a kid in the bed.

I try to get to be in bed by 10 whether I’m tired or not and stay in bed until at least 6. I find some old radio show droning in my earbuds helps get me off/back to sleep. As long as my eyes were closed I think it counts ;). This has got my Garmin sleep tracking up from 6hrs last year to 7hrs the last four months. My HRV has tracked upwards accordingly so I don’t think I’m just gaming the system.

27

@Ja5onHoffman I want to make sure I’m understanding your routine which sounds like the following (sorry for the long post):

  • Monday - Lifting,
  • Tuesday - Z2 ride,
  • Wednesday - off/recovery,
  • Thursday - Z2 ride,
  • Friday - off/recovery,
  • Saturday - hard group ride,
  • Sunday - Easy recovery ride.

Theoretically, two recovery days should be sufficient, but the timing appears a bit odd with them being so close (one day apart) and nothing following your harder days. Additionally, you indicate that your goals are to ride longer and faster which doesn’t necessarily align with your current training plan. The issue isn’t the lifting, but, in my opinion, the structure of your lifting and setup throughout the week. Specifically, you have high intensity riding on Saturday (probably longer since it’s a group ride), an easy ride on Sunday (no reference to time), hard lifting on Monday, and a zone 2 ride on Tuesday (no indication of time) before taking time off. Further, the lifting on Monday is a lot of volume and high intensity from the write-up.

Generally speaking, consistency with training is more critical when you can’t handle significant volume and the intensity needs to be appropriate. If your focus is on cycling, then you need to structure the lifting to meet your cycling needs. Additionally, it sounds like mobility work is important to you so you’ll need to fit this in as well. My critical takeaways on things are as follows:

  • If the primary goal is cycling, then you need to prioritize that effort and build some intensity outside of one group ride per week. You probably get in some VO2 work on the ride through random sprints so consider adding one sweet spot or threshold day per week with time for recovery.
  • Lifting and mobility work can be separated onto different days and, ideally, lifting occurs twice per week. Additionally, lifting has too much volume and the general guideline for most endurance athletes trying to build strength to generate more power are 3-5 exercises for 3-5 repetitions for 3-5 sets. Your focus goes into the hypertrophy range which isn’t necessary and runs counter to your goals.
  • You may benefit from doing some research on the training. A good option for you if you want to listen to something in the background is the recent six-part series from Andrew Huberman in which he interviewed Andy Galpin on all of these related topics.

Without knowing your availability for training or the time you have for these activities, it’s hard to make a scheduling recommendation, but consider the following:

  • Monday - Strength Training (ideally, you have an easy ride this day like Pettit).
  • Tuesday - Recovery Day (e.g., light yoga/mobility work, nothing hard).
  • Wednesday - Threshold or sweet spot work (60-120 minutes, but you could spilt into two rides).
  • Thursday - Strength Training (ideally, you have an easy ride this day like Pettit).
  • Friday - recovery Day (e.g., light yoga/mobility work, nothing hard).
  • Saturday - Hard Group Ride (2 hours?).
  • Sunday - Easy Zone 2 endurance/recovery ride (1-2 hours?).

The above gives you slightly more spacing for your recovery days. Mobility work is basically recovery work on off days. Strength training should be less in a single session and more frequent throughout the week (if you’re too sore, then you’re doing too much). Intensity through cycling was increased one additional day during the week. In all honesty, the schedule isn’t ideal, but it factors in your focus of rides for Saturday and Sunday.

Personally, I like to do hard cycling workouts in the morning/afternoon and lifting in the evening. If it isn’t the off-season, I’ll do one VO2 workout and one threshold/sweet spot workout per week with everything else being zone 2 or group rides. Additionally, I like to run so I keep this easy as additional zone 2 endurance work with the occasional sprints for fun. I take one-to-two days off depending on scheduling. Days off usually have some sort of recovery work such as yoga, mobility work, etc. You may want to try mapping out your schedule so that you can prioritize workouts accordingly. Hope this helps.

28

@Mjthomas85 Hey. Sorry, away for a bit. Amazing info! Appreciate it. I do listen to Huberman but haven’t listened to that one yet. I agree that things aren’t very well thought out right now. So many junk miles when I used to be a runner that I guess a laissez faire approach is sort of ingrained. Need to get out of that. Real training takes real thought. I’ve done crits and long gravel on crappy training but never a performance I was proud of. Definitely need to put a more concrete plan together that works with work travel. Thanks!

29

@Ja5onHoffman Sorry about the delay in responding. Training for running and cycling definitely overlap, but tend to differ in a few ways. Junk miles can be beneficial for both, but the volume needed for cycling at such a low intensity tends to be rather time consuming which is why structure is important when time is at all constrained.

30

Hey, dealing with a similar situation - coming from a total priority focus on cycling to this year starting CrossFit and within that emphasising heavy lifting whilst continuing to cycle. It’s made all the more complicated for me because our box doesn’t publish workouts any earlier than 24h in advance, so it makes planning a week hard. I have realised that although I feel much more knocked about and riding is definitely harder, the social benefits and just fun aspect of going to CF 3-4 times a week is worth it. I have ended up adjusting my expectations instead of trying to make my training fit my goals, if that makes sense. You might not be in that mindset but my overall aim is enjoyment and general robustness, conditioning and variety, so it works for me. I know my riding specifically may suffer a bit this summer, but the improvements I’ve already seen in general strength are huge.
Also, magnesium supplements have made a massive difference to the DOMS. I take a magnesium + melatonin tablet on nights after an evening workout, and just a plain Mg on days I’ve worked out earlier in the day. Also, can you ride to your strength workouts? I find that riding home gently afterwards seems to make a big difference in the DOMs as well.
I think like others have said you need to decide how much you enjoy the lifting and if it’s adding something extra to your life that you value. If it isn’t, and you’re starting to resent it and not prepared to sacrifice pure cycling performance for better overall strength (and feeling a lot more happy in my physical appearance in my case) then maybe change the focus of your strength training to a lower % of your 1RM and higher reps and see if that makes a difference.

31

there are lots of benefits!

the ability to recruit more muscle for pushing watts
the development of more muscle fibers and motor units
increase muscular endurance (push same watts for longer)
more muscle = more glycogen storage (and most won’t add unwanted bulk even from lifting 2x a week)
can aid in explosive power if targeting that aspect of training
overall strength to prevent injury (this was very helpful for me after achilles injury)
get leaner
better flexibility for aero position
hormonal benefits

32

hey Jason, I think it’s smart to be lifting, but as you mentioned in the thread, it just might be too much. Even 3 x 20 of kettlebell swings can oddly make me feel super weak on the bike. It’s almost a running joke at this point, like how can that one movement wreck me so much…honestly have no idea, but it does.

Even if athletes add one extra set, it sometimes makes the ride much worse. Try less to start, just 3 sets of what you’re doing, and maybe max the max reps as 6. Then experiment from there.

And doing all those on the same day is too much IMO. One squat (or variation), one deadlift or variation, an upper body push, upper body pull. and be done.

over time you’ll find what works, what’s fatiguing, and hopefully can move forward with some extra strength but enough freshness for the bike.

good luck!

33

Hi Brendan,

Do you coach athletes that are serious bikers doing >12h/week. That are really strong serious lifters AND also good climbers?

34

That’s basically what I’ve started doing.

Squats with resistance bands or single leg (bulgarian??) squats
Crunches
Pushups or resistance band bench press
Resistance band row.

I’m not interested in either working too hard at strength training (because I dont like it), or sabatoging my bike training. I do 2-3 sets of 10-20 of each depending on how I feel.

35

serious riders, for sure! >12h, yes many.
Depends what you call a “serious lifter”. I would say they are more serious cyclists (and would recommend the focus be on cycling) and follow lifting protocol to supplement the cycling.
since lifting is not their main sport, so not sure I’d call that “serious”.

36

I’d definitely lift more weight than that IMO, but way less reps. heavy weight, 5 rep range. Bands are okay, but are you actually getting stronger and adding noticeable strength, or just getting more tired? 20 is so many reps!!

37

I have never lifted weights for a consistent enough time in my entire life to notice any appreciable gains lol.

I’d rather do a 10 minute Vo2 effort on the bike than lift something heavy for 10 minutes :joy:

38

ha! then maybe not worth the time and effort!

you should do a 10m vo2 effort, but that’s a different thread! (like for real! supra threshold with high HR!)

39

Thanks for this suggestion. 2x a week with less reps instead of going hard 1x a week. Been struggling with soreness from 1x a week, although it’s been getting better (slowly).

40

Hey in all seriousness though…how would lower reps change things? I could swear from listening to the TR podcast 10-20…or 12-15, somewhere in there was reasonable. I could of course be completely off base…I know quite little about strength training.