@JoeX I didn’t use the base plan on Trainer Road as immediately before this I was coached privately through a whole base/build/specialty phase for an Olympic distance triathlon that I completed in mid April. After that (in which I did very well - knocked 20mins off my PB - best leg was the bike!) I had a week off structured training, then started the Half distance Trainer Road build plan. So I haven’t done Dade -1, Baird -1 and Mills. Maybe that’s the problem here.
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@JulianM, perhaps I should’ve mentioned - I’m on a ‘dumb’ trainer. No Erg mode here. I use an Elite Qubo Fluid Trainer - which is perfectly fine for me - though compared to Erg mode does have some cadence limitation. For me that’s fine - because that’s like the real world. Some helpful thoughts there though. I often find toward the end of a longer and harder interval that slowing my cadence (by shifting into a tougher gear) actually helps me achieve the interval - though I know in the longer run I’m better completing it with a faster cadence, so as much as possible I try not to do that. But sometimes i get to the point where I’ll do anything to stay on target and I’m happier to slow my cadence and stay on target than losing it! But still. Sometimes, especially at 130%, I’m losing it either way.
I really like this idea. I’ll try it on my next vo2 workout.
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Definitely. Jumping into the middle of a progression may be fine for some, it may not be for you.
However as you only need a few backpedals I wouldn’t suggest to go back and do the whole progression, rather adjust % intensity.
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Out of curiosity, what power meter are you using?
I struggle to complete 2.5-3 min intervals at 120% and have gone through the build up process where I’ve done shorter intervals earlier in the plan. I am yet to see anaerobic intervals of that length like you’ve stated (121 - 130%). I don’t think I’d be able to complete more than one or two intervals without having to decrease the intensity.
I think it’s better to complete the workout reduced than to bail after 2 or 3 intervals at the set wattage.
I use Powertap pedals.
And FYI I’m not bailing on the intervals - I complete them, at full intensity, but with a 10sec backpedal. The original question is whether I’m losing any benefit by inserting the backpedal.
For anyone still interested, I’ve been digging into this more and re-listened to episode 191 of the TR ask a cycling coach podcast where chad discusses v02 max at length. In that episode he talks about how STARTING with longer v02 max intervals (3mins) without first building up to them is likely not going to work. To quote @chad : “Starting with 3min v02 repeats is JUST CRUEL.”
I concur!
To be clear, I’m not starting from nothing. My previous coach got me working bloody hard on the bike. He got me to work through a progression of 1min ‘all out’ intervals followed by 1min rest (power number unspecified). I went through 10x1min, 15x, 20x, 25x, 30x, and then they changed to 6min ‘best average’. In hindsight, although that was an extremely good progression, it hasn’t specifically prepared me well enough for 3mins at 120-130% at a time. I think that’s the issue.
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FYI today I successfully completed Emerald -3 - which contains 6x 2mins at 120%. It felt hard for sure, but at no point did I feel unable to complete an interval. That’s set to the default 100% intensity. It’s really the 3min intervals at over 120% that have killed me.
Interestingly I also feel way more fatigued after v02 max workouts than sweet spot or over under workouts - even the 90min workouts. Do you guys experience the same? Or am I just systematically discovering I’m a v02 max gumby with a lot to learn?
Hi @PeterYock, I have been reading this thread with huge interest as your description could not be closer to my experience. Even the workouts you have done are the same ones I have done in the last few weeks. Even the intervals at which you needed to start backpedalling are the same. Even the time you need to backpedal to complete the interval at 100% intensity is the same. I struggle but can do 2min VO2max workouts but I have hardly ever in 4 years completed a 3min intervals workout.
Having said that, I can complete the longer 5-6min interval workouts where the intensity is around 108%.
Since you started this thread around 2years ago, I am curious to know what you have done since and what results that gave you. Anything that can help me get over the “failure” feeling?
Thanks for reaching out @mon269 - interesting that our experience has been so similar. Obviously we’re similarly challenged at vo2 max stuff.
I’m afraid I can’t offer any more help as I haven’t been able to maintain a cycling training plan consistently to try and improve. I’ve had other health issues prevent me - very annoying! In hindsight I do wonder if I timed my carbs correctly - and whether I fueled enough MID-workout. But that’s all i’ve got. Good luck!
Thanks for getting back, @PeterYock. I hope your health issues have improved and you can get back to training soon.
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Thanks! Working on it. Turns out I have some sinister stuff going on in my nerve and venous system… it’s all pretty whack tbh.
Where do these ideas come from?
You don’t need to ingest carbohydrates to get through a VO2max workout, and in fact it could be detrimental if you end up spilling your guts or even if you just cause blood flow to be diverted to your digestive tract.
Your pre-exercise intake also isn’t going to have any major effect provided your muscle glycogen stores are adequate to start (which will be mostly determined by what you did/ate the day before we although you could add a few minutes’ worth by “topping them up” with a high carb meal 4-6 hours out).
My guess…the podcast
Exactly. The Podcast. And my knowledge that I did 90% of my workouts at 5am without food beforehand. Even the best day-before eating means I might not be best equipped to face 60-90mins of intensity.
Interesting. I don’t need any crazy eating for 60 mins of threshold. The other day I did 27 mins all out in a PR attempt at 630 am. I ate some pasta and beets for breakfast at 5:30am. Maybe you can try that, is easily digestible.
After an overnight fast, your liver contains enough glycogen that you can continue to fast for another 18 hours before it would be empty.
After an overnight fast, you have to exercise moderately hard before plasma glucose levels will begin to decrease significantly.
During very high intensity exercise, such as VO2max intervals, glucose uptake by muscle is inhibited, and you can even see net glucose release.
During very high intensity exercise, such as VO2max intervals, plasma glucose levels actually increase, i.e., you become hyperglycemic, not hypoglycemic.
You don’t need to consume carbohydrates to complete a 60-90 minute VO2max workout “in style”, even after fasting overnight.
Ah. That would certainly explain Overton’s recent rant.
Yeah, the jury’s out on this one. I really don’t know the answer, just guessing. That’s what inspired my original post. Bummer other health issues means I’ve never been able to get to the bottom of it.