Big vs Small Riders?

Training
145

Grand tour winners compared to amateurs cyclists…ah…I thought this comparison had been banned?

If not, It should be illegal to make that often mistaken comparison for the rest of time. For some reason this is trotted out endlessly across the internet. Grand tour GC requirements have virtually no relevance to amateur cyclists.

They’re on bikes, but apart from that it’s almost a different sport.

It would be like taking an Formula 1 car to the shopping center, yes it’s faster, but it’s totally useless for the job required.

In my country (New Zealand), there are literally zero races that have any of the requirements of a grand tour contender. So, the requirements to succeed at a grand tour have no bearing on the training or physical attributes of any amateur road racing cyclist living here.

You’ll likely find it is similar in most countries.

Essentially, amateur road racing here is often 2 to 5hr events. Sometimes longer, but not often. Here in New Zealand races very rarely ever finish on a mountain top for logistical reasons. So, if you were to attempt to race here as a 59kg climber, you’d likely lose every single race.

If you can’t sprint reasonably well, you’re likely never winning either.

We have terrible road surfaces that chew up watts, so brute force is required to succeed.

Essentially, comparing the requirements of a grand tour GC rider to a single day amateur racer is somewhat illogical.

Work out what your races require and target that requirement. If that requirement is the highly unusually and almost impossible to attain attributes of a grand tour GC contender. Then, none of us are ever winning a race.

Trainer Road sure isn’t going to help with that either…

146

Actually, a GT GC riders training profile is by far the most analogous form to what the average cyclist needs. This does not mean that the average cyclist mimics the WT pro because the average cyclist can’t do the volume, doesn’t have the capacity for recovery and most importantly doesn’t have the genetics of said pro, but the principles the two should train by are almost identical because the profiles of their efforts are almost identical. Long, steady high effort, with certain super threshold moments.

The reason for this is the average cyclist is not doing a 2 to 5 hour road race or crit, those are way in the minority. The average cyclist is doing a Fondo, a gravel race or some other long distance ride. Belgian Waffle or Unbound Gravel alone have almost as many entrants as the whole crit scene in the US. Leadville takes qualifiers. These are what most cyclist do, not road race.

147

When did any of us ride a grand tour?

148

I do every night :roll_eyes:

149

None but it’s a test of the best all around riders and none are “big”

Joe

150

So after literally minutes of research and calculation I have come up with the most accurate formula I’ve ever seen (also the only one I’ve ever seen) to calculate your maximum potential w/kg based on your weight. Behold:

          w/kg (max) = [250 - weight (kg)] x 0.03

Feel free to chime in and complement me on my excellent work. If it doesn’t work for you, then you are clearly the exception that proves the rule. I like it because maximum raw power peaks somewhere over 100kg and then starts to drop, which is probably realistic. At some point extra weight stops helping and starts reducing total power.

151

Do you mean big by weight or by height - obviously none are carrying around extra fat… Look at Ganna, hes a large human capable of large watts - he weights 83kg.

Who would win - A peleton full of Bernal’s or a peleton full of Ganna’s? GC riders would be nowhere without riders capable of big watts at the front pushing the pace - they just need to perform once the gradient goes upwards of 8%.

Also - winning a grand tour has nothing to do with the best all-round riders in the typical sense - the domestiques maybe closer to all-rounders but GC riders (winners) are certainly specialists.

152

:+1: most grand tours are won by excellent climbers who are relatively OK at Time Trialling or excellent time trialists who are relatively OK at climbing. You occasionally get a good all-rounder (excellent at everything rider) in the GC but I must admit I am skeptical of them and unfortunately my skepticism usually gets reinforced :neutral_face:

153

Magnus backstedt ftp was 460 @ 94 kilo is 4.68 per formula

The formula was pretty close to real life

154

Since you need to climb with the climbers, TT with the specialists, and hang in there on the flat windy stages and (sometimes) cobblestones, I’m going with the TdF as the best overall test of all around riding. So we may disagree on this.

But…looking deeper…it’s not obvious what is going on as far as size. The winners are getting taller but staying the same weight. Average weight of all riders has actually decreased since 1990…though it’s been pretty stable over since 2010.

If you throw out Indrain as an outlier, you can’t be over 75kg/165# and win the tour de france. The lightest rider was 52kg (115#)!!

Joe

155

Pretty interesting.
Now of course the obvious question is which trainer road plan can get me Those last 100 W so I can sit at 345 W and reach my genetic potential :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

156

I think this is down to a mix of some or all of:

  • Better understanding of nutrition and how to get and stay super lean without sacrificing health and/or useful muscle mass
  • Alongside above, a more professional peloton who stay pretty disciplined all year round. No longer see guys like Ullrich who pile on the pounds over the winter and then race themselves into shape
  • GT routes and tactics favouring more of an all rounder. Pretty rare these days to see riders put minutes into their rivals on a big mountain stage. So more important than ever to be a decent TTer, and also able to handle gravel, cobbles, cross winds, etc. As when races are coming down to seconds (all 3 grand tours were won by <1 minute last year), any weakness can be exploited. All else being equal, taller riders at similar weight tend to be able to get more aero (smaller cross section, the extra body length is hidden behind your head/shoulders, the extra leg length is in pretty dirty air) so make for better TTers and maybe better able to handle cross winds as well.
157

Someone liked a comment on here and I looked to see what it was.

For reference to my posts above, FIVE of the people who I raced against (tried to keep up with) fairly regularly over the past few years have now gone to the World Tour and are (or will soon be) racing with Bike Exchange, Ineos and Alpecin. Two of those also have a Bronze medals on the track from the Tokyo Olympics.

Note that I am nowhere near the level of those people (or many other people who I was racing against), and they have continued to improve, while i have ahem declined… However, it does bring my comments and general feelings of inadequacy into better perspective…

So, if you are looking back at the information/comments in this thread, my above views are pretty skewed in comparison to the ‘normal’ level and the World Tour signings over the past couple of years have made this very apparent!

On a very positive note - our local cycling culture is obviously going strong! :slight_smile:

158

I love this thread. :smiley:

I’m 6’3” and 96Kg. My buddy who I ride a lot with is 5’6’ and 60Kg.

He’s at around 4W/kg - I’m down around 3.3(ish) …

He complains that he’s disadvantaged on the flats. I moan that he has a bigger advantage on the hills. :joy:

In reality, when we ride together he gets a HUGE draft from me when he’s sat on my wheel.

Conversely when I sit on his wheel my whole upper torso is in the wind and I get some (but not much) benefit.

I can’t drop him on the hills, or in a sprint from moderate speeds.

BUT, if we are already moving fast (at least 25mph) and then I put the hammer down hard, I can ride him off my wheel. Once I get a small gap it’s game over as he then gets the full effect of the wind resistance and by the time he’s countered that I’m gone :muscle:t2: :smiley:

159

I’m a small rider and I absolutely think small riders have numerous advantages compared to a larger rider of “equivalent” fitness in a mass-start race scenario.

I race road/crit on a team where everyone is over 6ft (+182cm). I’m the only short rider on my team at 5’6" (168cm). I’m the only person on my team who does NOT break 300w FTP, and everyone else is far north of 300w with a few over 400w.

Racing is about speed, not watts.

At my height and bike fit, 150w is 21mph on a flat course. My zone 2 is enough for +23mph. I can solo a rolling century at 20-22mph at endurance pace even with headwinds plaguing half the ride.

The unique advantage small riders have in pack racing is the draft is EXTREMELY potent. Even at 28mph avg race speeds, there are literally times I can freewheel in the middle of a pack and STILL need to scrub brake in order to not slam my front tires into the wheel in front of me. Meanwhile, every average-sized and “big” rider around me is pedaling. The energy conservation afforded by a small rider can be huge when positioned properly in a peloton.

Half my teammates are sprinter-types, and they are not built for breakaway situations because they need to do a disproportionate amount of work in the rotation. Especially if their turn comes up in a headwind. To put in context, when I am towing at 30mph in a crosswind, I “only” need to do 400w while pulling the selection. And I only need to do that for a minute. For me, it’s tough but definitely repeatable even for an hour of racing if shared between 4~5 riders. In contrast, my 6’2" teammate is literally doing 500w IN THE DRAFT, when they’re supposed to be recovering. That’s a huge toll when sitting in a break and your turn is coming right up.

For a rider my size, everyone in the field is a perfect draft. The big riders have to be more selective.

The biggest disadvantage I find being a small rider, is I am an easy target when it comes to stealing wheels. People don’t mess with huge riders, and moreover, an aggressive but competent “big” rider has the commanding presence to muscle their way through a field and select the optimal wheel of their choice during key moments in the race.

I keep tabs on everything during races, and people are far more likely to steal my wheel. Some do it intentionally, but I believe many do so subconsciously, again because I am an easy target. To counter this, I’ve learned to not only become extremely aggressive with protecting my wheel, but also resort to NOT optimizing my position “too early” in the final laps… because it’s easier to steal wheels than to protect.

It’s unfortunate because I either have to deal with final lap encounters and put myself at risk by banging wheels/bars/elbows all while overlapping wheels to protect my spot, OR, surge hard at the 11th hour if I wanna position on my own terms. Sometimes not even possible if the speeds are going crazy.

All that to say, like all things in life, pro’s and con’s to everything. But I feel lucky being small because I feel like I have far more cards to play when racing.

160

That sounds like the white elephant present exchange game :rofl::rofl:

In general it is my experience that riders that start talking about their W/kg numbers out of nowhere in general conversation, are all very small.

161

You just made me mad all over again. :laughing: I’m 6’6" with a big FTP. But It’s so annoying when the pack is moving at 30+mph and I know I’m doing 500-600W pulls and the little guys are doing maybe half that. Ugh.

I got in a break once, and we were doing 28ish. And I was with a guy who was about your size. When we got caught, I was totally gassed. He shrugged at me and said, “Aw man. I was only pushing like 300 for my pulls.” I could only glare at him. LOL!!

162

Yeah, everything in life is a trade-off. Even though by Western standards I’m not big, as a white guy living in Japan, I’m usually in your boat. At most races I am the heaviest or second-heaviest guy even though I weigh 72–74 kg in race spec. I fare better on short, hard climbs: after I crest, absolute power becomes increasingly important and I’m usually doing a lot more power (in absolute terms) than my riding mates. I dread moving back to Europe … :grin:

164

I’m in the same boat as @kjdhawkhill. At a few hairs over 6 ft and a couple of biscuits under 100 kgs, 150 watts puts me at just fast enough to keep from falling over. I would likely look like my kids the first time they soloed without the training wheels.

I realize I am mixing metric and irrelevant units. I have never made the adjustment to metric when talking about people’s height.

I was telling a coworker originally from South Africa that as an engineer I work in metric units and think in imperial, at least when it comes to every day tasks.