Are Over-unders actually Under-overs?

Training
1

Hi all,

New to TR and I have a lot of questions! One of which, why do almost all over-under workouts seems to start with the unders?

The description, the text pop-ups in Zwift and obviously the name imply that the goal is to raise lactate in the overs, and train on clearing it during the unders. So improving lactate clearing etc just below FTP.

However, the way these are all structures, say three blocks of 2min under, 1min over, 2min under, 1min over, there is just a small part where you actually maintain just under FTP whilst having the lactate from the above FTP section. The second time you build lactate, you go straight into barely pedaling recovery.

Would the inverse not make more sense? Immediately doubling the time and work the description tells me is the point of the workout?

Secondary question: I have a lot of questions and thoughts. Best to post them separately with the correct tags, maybe over a few days/weeks or just build one large meta-post ‘newby questions’? (Yes I search the forum first :wink: )

2

I found myself wondering the same thing, when I was offered Palisade.

I’m returning to training after 3 years off so I’m enjoying a noob gain phase.

In my case I decided the O/U workout badged as threshold probably wasn’t achieving what a traditional threshold OU workout intends.

I don’t see that as a problem though, the workout was a challenge and once I’ve got those noob gains no doubt OU workouts around my threshold will feel like I remember.

3

Search for “empirical cycling podcast debunked over under workouts lactate clearance” and see what the AI summarizes
here is just a short version (better look at the complete points):

In the Empirical Cyclingpodcast (specifically “Watts Doc #43: Over-Unders Are Not Special”), host Kolie Moore argues that traditional over-under workouts are not a uniquely effective method for improving lactate clearance or threshold power, contradicting popular belief. While acknowledging they are a challenging, high-quality threshold workout, the episode posits that they do not provide a “magical” adaptation unavailable through other, less fatiguing methods.

Site note:
I’ve had much more fun with my own 2x20min (2min 90% 30sec 120%) (you need a dialed in FTP and could also consider 80-85% for the unders) and it’s a bummer that TR mainly uses 105/95% and those more fluctuating are not in the official TR workout catalog:

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This is your listen:

1 Like
4

The Temple series is 110%/90% at 1min/2min​:+1:

5

I know, don’t like those either. Only Simcox and Needham could be an option for me.

6

Yeah 
 that’s where I was going next. :joy:

1 Like
7

Take a look at the workouts in the Sweetspot category but then see the sub-category of ‘with bursts’ these will have shorter efforts well above 110%.
Working for short sections at or above whatever steady state interval, is going to provide benefits compared to just steady. Is it magic? no 
 but if you had two groups one that rode at 90% steady
. and one that did 90% and 110% for short periods with in
 who will be faster after 2mo? Even if you shift for equal NP or AvgP (like 88/110% vs steady 90) -
But yes, have ALWAYS added ‘float recovery’ in any running or biking workout I have programmed for myself in O/U workouts. So that last small interval in a block would be at the under intensity. Whether I would set it up for hard start vs ease into the interval 
 that would be dependent on how my expected freshness was or time of day of the workout (mornings its hard to go full gas right away for me). Really if its OU or UO
 you are still getting the gains, you sitll have high Lactate in the 2-3min of the soft pedal recovery, you body still is adapting to using it as a fuel and shuttling it, etc.