120% of FTP for 8 minutes outdoors - is that possible?

What FTP protocol are you using? As the estimation model of WKO’s TTE method, it seems possible if the TTE is set rather long as the peak power of a short time is not well recorded.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

What FTP protocol are you using

So, I use the average of 3x10s as my protocol based around rpe and heart rate. Ramp tests wreck me for days.

I then normally build out to 2x20 from there.

Not standard, I know, but works for me in terms of benchmarking my training in terms of rpe.

I ended up having to do my threshold workout indoors this morning. Rpe was way higher than doing it outside.

Could well be cooling. Maybe also the fact that my power outside fluctuates a bit due to the terrain (no pretty erg blue lines :grinning:)

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That’s similar to my own experience.

Also, virtually every athlete I’ve met. It’s a very interesting issue. There’s many reasons for it.

  1. Cooling
  2. Climbing pedaling physics
  3. Bike movement
  4. Motivation
  5. Zero ambient C02 build up

The fascinating part, is this effect on your yearly training. Hypothetically, if every threshold or above session was done under optimal outdoor conditions, what are we talking, 100 sessions per year?

From my experience, I gain approx 10w. I’m a small 62kg rider. Larger riders sometimes gain more like 20w. Add this 10-20w stimulus over 100 training sessions. That’s a massive increase in load. One applied in all your key sessions. I cannot imagine it not having a substantial benefit, long term.

Obviously, you need the weather, the geography and time to train in this manner. Not many folk have that combo year round.

However, it’s definitely something to think about.

Certainly, when you get the chance to do your harder sessions outdoors, jump at it.

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That’s always been the case for me. VO2 Max? Forget it. The TR folks will push back hard on that, but I’ve tried everything to make threshold and above work for me indoors, two large lasko blower fans, bags of ice, ice water. It just doesn’t work for me.

Conversely, I can do threshold, over/unders easily outdoors (that’s compared to the RPE I experience indoors) and VO2 Max efforts are achievable (but NOT easy for me). I’ve done some 3-4 minute VO2 max intervals indoors and I was genuinely worried about my health the entire day. Scary, not worth it.

Basically, I’m in complete agreement with @TheBandit - train outdoors whenever possible. Do the hard stuff outside and save the easy boring stuff for indoors. That’s where I’m at.

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Isn’t that what we aim for when doing VO2 max efforts? If this effort was better/longer than previous you have improved your VO2 max. Take it.

That’s a high power output for a long time IMO, but not impossible. I just looked back at my hardest effort outdoors and it’s about 115% FTP for 8 min.

Agree with others here that comparing FTP indoors and outdoors might not be 1:1 so don’t get hung up too much on it.

More interesting is how long you were able to hold that RPE for 8 minutes. Were you dying? Was your heart in your throat? Was your breathing controlled or loud and labored? Was your face scrunched up and eyes crossed? I would have been all of the above, followed by hunching over the bars and trying not to throw up at the end of the session.

That means you are one tough MFer! Nice work! Your competitors better watch out!!

to me theres either an inconsistency with data or you need to reassess FTP.

Its a workout for a lot of people to hold their supposed trainerroad ftp for 10 minutes.

Trainerroad has an 8 minute FTP test, basically you do two 8 minute efforts and multiply the average of those by .90. For you that would be about 243.

With your new FTP, that effort you did would be able 111% of your FTP which is a lot more likely.

I seriously cant imagine holding 120% of my FTP for 8 minutes.

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So what can you hold for 8 mins? Either this season or all time relative to your FTP?

@redlude97 According to TR my record is 345 for 8 minutes which by my math is 110% of my FTP of 313.

My 5 minute power is 360 so 115%.

Are those max efforts that you were actually trying for? How often are you doing those types of max efforts? If you look at the coggan w/kg chart the avg 5 min power is ~122% of FTP

No, not max effort for that time, just rides. 120% is 375 and I could hold that for 5 mins I believe in a max effort. I did 397 for three minutes in a race on Saturday but that wasn’t max full bore. Still was a strong effort though.

IVRR | Ride | Strava

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Interesting, because my 5 min power is ~355 watts but my FTP is a paltry 260-75. We must have very different power curves since yours appears to be north of 300w

I don’t know, but “The Gorby”, considered by some to be a difficult workout, is 5x5 at 110%.

Red Lake +3 - TrainerRoad is a VO2 max workout at PL 6.4 and it is 5 mins at 108%. So I think I’m in line with what TR thinks the power curve should be.

The guy above saying 130% for 10 mins? Sounds like something is wrong there. But thats just my opinion.

The TR ramp test essentially puts your 5-min power at 133% FTP.

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In a road race this year I managed 330 for 10 minutes, that 10 minutes fell inside an hour at 244 and a 20 minute effort at 271. Those were all basically max efforts to date for me. A few days later I did a crit that set a new 20 minute pr at 288.

All those numbers align fairly well with what I believe my ftp is, about 275 +/-10. That 330 effort is bang on 120% of 275.

My golden place is 4 to 10 minute efforts.

Am I doing my math wrong here are you saying the last 1 min of the ramp test =~5min best? Because ramptest(1min)/.75=1.33

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I’ve got some workouts for you all based on the numbers you are stating

Mount Graham - TrainerRoad

And this one which is one of the hardest TR VO2 max workouts.

Roof Butte - TrainerRoad

yes. Coach Chad covers this in podcast episode 189. My notes here: Time at VO2max discussion - #11 by bbarrera

I can’t see those, but will state its the difference between the use of repeated 5-min efforts to generate a lot of time at high % VO2max, versus a single all-out max 5-min effort.

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