Agree. But (and perhaps I missed it further up), but what does that have to do with Zone2/low(er)-intensity? The stable/non-stable divide is most definitely a thing, and regardless of how it’s derived there is general consensus (scientifically, with CP, and less formally with FTP or even “gorilla on your back” feel) that below a certain point your physiology is more predictable, less erratic, and stable than above that point.
The range of intensities below that cutoff is so wide that for coaching purposes it’s not useful. For example, .55 - .90 FTP is laughable. Why even have a power meter?
Besides what has been pointed out as to why there are so many posts on this, it is this huge and vague range of possible acceptable and productive intensities that leads to all the discussion, confusion, and second guessing. It is where we spend most of our time as endurance athletes. Until now, I’ve never understood why it got LESS discussion than upper thresholds. They’re easy to figure out, comparatively speaking.
He is forced to give some sort of recommendation for the average Joe. But his zone prescriptions are certainly different. For sure not using any silly %’s.
ISM is so influential and different that some other Pro pelotón coaches use his style. Although the hey day of his ideas there was like 5yrs ago.
But again, the divide is so wide that you can’t really discover any threshold with quantitative techniques. Can you point me to a reference that refutes the null hypothesis the it’s a continuum?
I saw him doing it in videos. He obviously has to do that as it’s race specific for a mountain top finish. We’ve also seen McNulty doing similar efforts on climbs (Strava). ISM is his coach.
thread drift LOL. However I’m in the power analytics camp. Therefore I use “FTP” to compare power at my perceived lower aerobic threshold (power at my “all day” HR). Over 3 years it has gone up, from 60% ftp to currently around 72% ftp. Roughly.
Sorry this “ftp for vanity” doesn’t exist here on Tue/Wed/Thur worlds in heavy winds. For everyone.
Flatland is sustained power land. Ok, I guess ftp is vanity for the guys out front, the guys my size that can go 330-380+W for 40-50 minutes, and doing 220-280W tractor pulls on 3+ hour group rides. For the rest of us, ftp basically predicts when we get dropped.
There’s a new podcast on fast talk with ISM speaking about base again and I got to the point when they were talking about the importance of the black hole (see Ferrari’s thread linked above ) named Medio (aka tempo or ISM z2 it seems).
ISM talks about this in his 3 hour podcast with Peter Attia.
He brings up that adaptations in Z2 training takes about 30-45mins to start achieving. So, you want to ride for 45+ minutes in Z2 to see the adaptations in that zone.
He also cations against leaving Z2 too much during a workout. If you leave Z2 and do some type of interval you build up too much lactate and are now training other systems.
I’ve seen people on this forum (not this thread) suggesting that a rider should or could ‘enhance’ z2 by throwing in some intervals. ISM would disagree with that. You do Z2 to train the metabolic system.
If you go above Z2 during the ride I do not think he says it takes 30 minutes to return to Z2 endurance training, but it will take some amount of time to clear the lactate and start getting the Z2 adaptations again.
Key take away for me, is if I want to mix in an interval and Z2 training. Do the Z2 section first. Then do the higher zone training afterwards.
ok, lets play that game. I’m going to debunk LT1 on the basis its not attached to any useful length of time. And when someone is tested a few times in a short span, LT1 will move around a little. Too vague.
Maybe I missed something, but it seems ISM plays up the lactate/time side of the story, and avoids the CP/FTP concept of a narrow zone that separates stable and unstable physiology. Its real, it can be observed/measured, and it exists along a part of the lactate curve where there is no obvious inflection point.
Not in flatland where its about raw watts and aero. Pretty much everyone my size is riding around the same watts when hauling ass at 25-33mph. And pretty much everyone with a lower ftp ends up getting dropped sooner or later.
Cp is not the same as ftp… ftp is somewhere below Cp. Since it is a functional tests without an agreed upon definition it might be closer or farther away from Cp depending on the individual.
Yeah, I get it. You have to believe in what you’re doing more than anything.
It makes me think of a video I watched a couple of days ago though.
Neil Degrasse Tyson was talking about the theories surrounding the Big Bang Theory. Basically, the Big Bang is a proven, and measurable thing, you’re allowed to of course have new theory’s and test them to find out if they are true, but they don’t replace known scientific fact. They can both exist. Same with Newton’s laws and Einsteins theory of relativity
That is to say, there’s lots of science in physiology and MLSS is a known and measurable thing, as is LT1. Both of these can be in existence together.
ETA: I do wonder what the optimum, or alternative, would be for TSS etc etc if you changed the metric they’re based around. I know some don’t believe in the metrics, but it’s a wonder.
same with the narrow band of power that separates stable and unstable physiology. Its been studied and validated by science. Going back to the page I posted above Zone 2 training with Iñigo San Millán, part 2 - #703 by WindWarrior from Skiba’s Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes, he uses the term Critical Power however my FIELD testing of FTP gives the same power range as CP testing. Skiba will argue how FTP and CP are not the same, and my position is “whatever” because I don’t use the ‘standard’ 8-min or 20-min FTP protocols.
I’m somebody with a 260-290W ftp and in chain gangs out here, in heavy winds where there is nowhere to hide, its a guarantee that I’m going to get dropped when the pace requires than averaging 300+W for more than 6-10 minutes. Guaranteed. Maybe I’m just old and feeble
Sure, the small aero guys and gals can hang on at 220W while the big boys are pulling at 350+W. Thats aero for ya. But line the big boys up, and I can post Strava screenshots of TT like power with huge 400-600W bursts when taking 15-30 second pulls on the front. Its not because I can’t do 30mph for 5 mins, its because hanging on is driving my HR to max and breathing so hard I’m about to pass out.
Thats what happens when “similar aero sized riders” are putting down 330+W average (with ‘low’ variability when not pulling) for 40+ minutes and my personal best at 330W is 5 minutes. Dropped in about 5 minutes after the warmup is over and its game on. Which brings us back to “ftp” and riding in stable-vs-unstable states. And like I said, the small slippery guys/gals don’t need 330W they can survive around 230-250. Because aero.
