Trainerroad getting called out on pricing and other criticisms

Open letter to Nate Pearson (CEO of TrainerRoad)

Dear Sir, I thank you for your thoughtful and considered reply to my original video here (Which Cycling Training App is Best? Should you chose Zwift vs Sufferfest vs TrainerRoad? - YouTube). I would like to clarify a few points. I made a ‘free speech fair criticism’ video of 3 apps and didn’t single any one out in particular purely praise and nor did I say TR was ‘no good’ or that people should not choose it nor did I tell people to buy a competitor product. Yet the amount of hate mail and name calling from your users is frankly appalling and I hope you don’t condone that; I had to delete some of the more abuse posts and some were self-censored by youtube for bad language. In the cold light of day did my fair opinion warrant such a severe reaction which is also (in part) mirrored on this forum? To repeat, I said all these apps are good in their own way and each has a place if they are working for the customer and helping them improve. Yet it is true, I did single TR out on price but cost is not the same as value. In this regard none of the apps are necessarily bad value (as opposed to expensive relative to others). If users are not using the app or not improving then none are worth the money even at a grandfathered reduced rate.

You have asked if I am paid by sufferfest (or another TR competitor). I am not, and already said so several times, but now sufferfest themselves has written to confirm this…so my opinion piece video is not a “paid product placement” as you have alleged. You keep repeating the ridiculous assertion I am paid by a competitor and refuse to accept the answer which is curious and I wonder if this is a method of deflecting my criticisms? No one at fastfitnesstips (including myself) have ever taken any money or goods from any company in return for any review and hence we remain able and willing to give our own opinion. This has got us into arguments with Peloton and Ceramicspeed when we called them out on what we saw as an outlier price. Is it better to live in a society where honest people cannot give their opinion with accusations flying left right and center? Most good companies will take any such comment on the chin, and ask how can we improve?

That said, let me acknowledge, you kindly mention various new features in the pipeline and these are probably excellent but better if people can try these out before committing upfront. I already asked (see the original video description and comments) for TR and Zwift to please forward us a no-money upfront code for our viewers to try these enhancements. But you say no one has contacted you. So I am hereby asking for the third time, publicly, please give our viewers a public 30day free code as you have been promising, without an upfront payment.

Next, you say several times that TR is exactly the same price as Zwift when paid annually. Without wanting to appear petty, please would you confirm you annual price is $180 not $190 to bring these in line. I know it’s might seem a small difference, but it is one that might mean a lot to some people as well as validating your pricing claim of exact equivalence. This is a simple request, not a demand, it is up to you to price the product exactly as you want, I am simply pointing out that the equivalence you claim, isn’t quite correct.

I want to acknowledge that you kindly removed the “13% improvement per hour” claim from your site, thank you, and in return I duly acknowledge that that was a claim about interval training and nothing to do with TR per se. You appear to say your 1%/99% rule is valid and you stand by it. Allow me to mention that you are sitting on a mountain of user data, a lot of it in a public domain but most of it not. Apparently some of your viewers want to sue me for looking at your public records and making these into spreadsheet table. If they are unhappy about TR broadcasting their workouts publicly, you might want to double check on their consent status. Having read your GDPR statement I see you reserve the right to analyse data on file. I would therefore please ask you to please analyse your own files to clarify that the 99% recommendation is on the basis of actual outcomes namely the percentage who did better on SSB was 99:1 vs TB.

Next you criticise our analysis of your 90% rule in the 8x2 test (aka 2x8 test) and the 95% rule in 20minFTP steady state test (Is 90% of 8min x 2 test power really your FTP? (8x2 vs 20min FTP tests) - YouTube). I am open to feedback on this. To quickly summarize quite an in depth piece of work, we analyzed at PRs from 5s thru 2hrs inclusively and also all FTP tests on file. We initially used 60min PR as the gold standard but to improve validity we extended that to actual 60mins FTP tests which were notated as such by the rider and in close proximity to their other tests. You are of course correct this is a rarefied group. Result show that not only is the 60minPR highly correlated with 60mFTP but the standard calculations of 90% (+/-3%) and 95% (+/-3%) are correct only in about 10-20% of your user base. What this means in practice is you are at risk of miscalculating FTP for around 90% of users doing a shorter steady-state protocol if you are relying only on this method. Again, I want to acknowledge you have since launched the Ramp test and our early analysis appear to show that the Ramp test is more accurate measure of FTP60 than other methods in most people. However, it also means people will find they probably get two different FTP predictions (and zone thresholds) from the steady-state FTP tests and the RAMP test (……yes a minority will line up of course). Now some maybe most will argue about our protocol or whether FTP even exists, or whether an outsider is even allowed to look at the public data; in which case I simply urge you to check your own data very carefully and I believe you will see we are correct. What you do with this information, assuming you don’t already know this, is entirely up to you. As an aside, Zwift uses an even more crude model of 95% of any 20min PR, but their users are probably less sensitive to accuracy than yours.

To repeat, I bear neither you nor your product any ill will or malice. I am a hospital doctor and cycling coach and cycling enthusiast who has raised valid points. Even if you don’t agree with me, there is no need to keep accusing me of selling out, or worse. In all sincerity, I wish you well in trying to improve cycling and endurance sports. Bw alex mitchell MD lead coach from FFT (or “youtube guy” as you prefer to call me)

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Yeah, I don’t think this is gonna turn out well for you. But I guess if just trying to fan the flames of controversy is your goal, you’ll be OK.

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Thanks for the response!

Yes, if anyone is bullying you that’s no good. If people are engaging in constructive criticism then we’re all for that.

Everyone, please remember to always attack the idea and not the person.

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I believe so, yes.

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I haven’t read every response skipped around and read people’s thoughts.

I come from a traditional get a coach. Plan races. Have a plan. Follow the plan. Some coaches are good. Some are not. I have one in Aus that is legitimate. He talks to you. Knows life gets in the way etc.

But what I get out of TR is different. I get a plan. A forum. I’ve talked with several members offline about training and life. And the podcast I consider like one to one coaching and having friends talking over training. What you get out of TR is a lot more than most coaches, Zwift , Sufferfest etc. I am not saying anything against Zwift, it has its place. You get a lot more from your $ with TR.

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Longtime viewer of your youtube videos here. I hope you are not put off by the rudeness of the internet. Thanks for engaging with the TR community here.

When I watched your video the first time, I was also under the impression you had a special deal with Sufferfest. Most of the big cycling youtube channels are sponsored to some degree, so this is not an unreasonable assumption. I think it would have helped if you said this clearly in your video (“We reached out to all the companies, and only Sufferfest sent us a promo code.”) On the other hand, it wasn’t that big a deal IMHO. It’s totally fair that you promote your own stuff, one size does not fit all and I’m happy if the cycling community at large has more, substantially different choices.

Regarding Zwift, I am not sure whether it even makes sense to call Zwift a training app — yes, you can train with Zwift, many of my team mates do, but I wouldn’t call Zwift a training app. Dylan (who you also reference) reviewed their training plans and had less than kind things to say about it. On the other hand, if it motivates people to spend time on the bike, it’ll have fitness and health benefits.

I have two major points of criticism, though: first, in the video you focus on price rather than value (as you admit in your post). Clearly, value is much more important in this context. It’d still be fair for you to come to the conclusion that you find TR doesn’t provide enough value to justify its higher price (and later on at about 11:00 in the video you state as much). In the context of evaluating training apps, shouldn’t one major differentiator be the quality of the training plans?

Secondly, you criticize TrainerRoad’s suggestion to do follow the Sweet Spot plan.(*) TR’s recommendation is to split training into base + build + specialty, and Sweet Spot is the default recommendation for the base phase only. There are no sweet spot plans for build and specialty phase, although there will of course be sweet spot workouts. Given there are many, many options to choose from for build and specialty, you can tailor a training plan to your needs. Even for novices it is quite easy to tailor a plan to your needs, even more so with the Plan Builder (which, I think, was not yet released when you made the video).

However, as someone who hasn’t used Sufferfest, I think it would have been more helpful and put TrainerRoad’s features into perspective if you had compared the variety of training plans, the efficacy of training methodologies and the ease-of-use between the two. You criticize TrainerRoad’s training methodology, for example, but don’t even mention which one Sufferfest uses. (AFAIK the founder of Sufferfest used to be at TR, so perhaps there is sizable overlap here?)

(*) Later on in the video, when you mention TrainerRoad’s opposition to polarized training, it seems you are well aware of the TrainerRoad’s complete plans and their default recommendation. But IMHO you wouldn’t know if all you had to go on is your video, at the very least your video is ambiguous to misleading as to whether you criticize the sweet spot base plan or the sweet spot training methodology.

One question: you rate Sufferfest’s 4DP as being better than basing workouts off of your FTP. If memory serves, this was covered on the TR podcast, and the claim is that there is no solid scientific basis to use anything but the FTP to scale workouts, sort of like left/right power balance. What scientific basis do you see for that? And does Sufferfest really customize your training plan based on all of the 4DP data points? (I haven’t used their app.)

Since TR has introduced the ramp test as the default to determine the users’s FTP, I don’t think many average users are electing to the 8- or 20-minute test. And for advanced users who for some reason prefer a traditional FTP test, perhaps the old recommendation (20-minute power = 95 % FTP) is more accurate than the newer rule-of-thumb of 20-minute power = 85-90 % FTP.

Speaking from my own experience, I found the ramp test to either slightly underestimate my “FTP” (i. e. the power number that is used to scale workouts) or be spot on.

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Excellent post.

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See Chris Carmichael for the 8 minute test and Hunter Allen for VO2 Max and 20 minutes TT test (Dr. Coggan commented as such on your video). They are not rules but test protocols to approximate one’s FTP.

Again FTP is not pegged to a set duration. What is a “60min FTP test”? There’s no such official workout on TR as far as I can tell. The gold standard is the average power during an approximate one hour (not 60 minutes) time trial (generally a steady state effort). As you correctly discerned it’s a “rarefied group” so why are you pushing that narrative that falsely equate FTP to 60 minute performance? Since you mined PR from 5 seconds to 2 hours, did you do a comparison of individual user’s critical power (based Monod and Scherrer test protocol, third of seven alternatives to estimate FTP in order of certainty) to their FTP test result as a validation of your conclusion? Assuming you can discern that the power outputs selected represent efforts to “exhaustion”. Next down on the list of estimating one’s functional threshold power is based on normalized power from a hard approximately one hour race not average power. Was this your “60minPR” comparison? If so you have reached a false conclusion based on a faulty assumption (seeing a pattern here). Your assertion “for around 90% of users” is a bit generous. Was this due to using mostly WO results as opposed to efforts to “exhaustion”? How did you determine that? If you insist on pegging one’s training level on their 60 minutes performance, please call it something other than FTP to avoid confusion.

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I think it shows a complete lack of character for this guy to make BS (no other way to say it) claims about TR and paint it as “the most expensive app where they recommend the same sweet spot plan to 99% of users”, without mentioning the specialized plans which go well beyond the sweet spot base. He claims “surely not everyone is a beginner, surely not everyone needs to start with sweet spot” but if he did even a minor amount of reading he’d realize that the SSB plan is more than simply Sweet Spot workouts. Then to play victim like he’s being bullied for no reason, and to then come here and tell us how he’s a doctor and all this crap, just re-affirms what we all thought. Yea he made a searchable file for TR podcasts, big whoop, it doesn’t give him the right or authority to come in here demanding proof of any claims like why SSB is recommended for 99% of users, or try to call out Nate or other employees for not giving him coupon codes when TR already has a 30 day money back guarantee, and gives trial memberships to users so they can invite their friends; in fact we have a thread on this forum for sharing of codes so if a new person wants to try TR, there are hundreds of members ready and willing to send out trials.

I would rather be a part of TR, a part of our community, rather than ever sign up for coaching from a pretentious and self righteous “coach”. We have a ton of plans, a ton of great podcasts from awesome cyclists, we have big names from YouTube who are active on the forum and interact with us, and we have thousands of athletes with a proven track record of success. To me that’s worth more than $20 per month

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Maybe you’ll spend more time researching the topic in the future.

People tend to get thin-skinned when it comes to “alternative facts” these days.

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It is Christmas eve today, due to that I am keeping it short and simple.
Why on earth should TR give away a free trial to you? From my point of view you are trying to make money out of your presents in the www, if that is the case than any costs associate with that are educables. Asking multiple times does not help anyways.
To be honest I have not watched your video nor did I read the whole blog here in the forum. I only read the statements by TRs @Nate_Pearson as well as yours and want to end with a question.
Aren´t $180 and $190 per year the same for people that dedicated to cycling? $10 are not worth talking about.

Really? TR adds distance to my Strava account…

depends on your setup. i have a crank-based powermeter on a dumb fluid trainer, so no speed for me.

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Ah yeah good point! :man_facepalming:

TR doesn’t add it. My Kickr sends fake speed data to TR. Then TR syncs to Strava and Strava gets the fake Wahoo speed data. The real problem is that Wahoo sends fake speed data, based on flywheel speed.

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Really? This was claimed in the podcast? Oh boy, if true this is big-time misleading and so disappointing.

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This was not claimed on the podcast, but we did talk about why we don’t do this approach. We don’t think it’s a better way to train compared to what we have today.

We are working on improving what we have though (as always).

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Thanks Nate. Which podcast number?.. I’m going to give it a listen before (if) I comment any further.

Oh man, I have no clue. I can give you the clif notes.

Doing all out testing like this has the same flaws that we found in the 20 minute FTP test. You pretty much have to know what your result is before you start in order to pace correctly. Especially with the short stuff, pacing is a big component.

It’s also hard mentally and physically do to often.

We put people in a good starting point for each energy system then progress them through it; in other words it keeps getting harder as you go through the plan.

If you struggle with a single VO2 max workout (which happens), we suggest that you tick the workout down 1-2% in the middle.

VO2 max responds really quickly, so depending on your history you could get back on track for the next workout.

We don’t think the approach of getting your VO2 max level (via dubious test in our opinion), then having you stay at that level for a plan block is superior to what we do today.

That being said, we can improve what we’re doing and we’re working on it. I was just in a meeting about it on Monday.

Looking at our data this is less of an issue than some people would make you think.

Not to derail this thread completely but here’s one more crazy and invalidated piece of data (I haven’t dug really deep into this yet). It appears that older men are MORE likely to complete VO2 workouts successfully compared to younger men. My gut tells me that older gentlemen can just go deeper but I have no data to back that up.

We’ve got some data scientists getting our data in order so that we can confidently publish the results. Again, I want to say that I could be 100% wrong on the above, we need to validate it.

I really hope I am able to do a blog post saying that old men are tougher than young guys :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:. That would get some shares :smiley:.

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