I listened to that episode as well and also found his recent observations about longer intervals interesting as well. I’ve never personally tried the 5x5 intervals so thanks for sharing your experience.
Knowing myself, as a self coached athlete, I would probably find this workout extremely hard to execute with the HR cap (not going hard than I should), hence why I have avoided them.
Cycling is definitely different. Agree with you that in running, particularly ultra- and marathon running, you’re not going to do the full distance prior to an event due to the impact.
I do think that in cycling you want to ride long endurance rides that are at least the duration of your key event in training. Now, I would caveat that with obvious exceptions - if you’re an audaxer or riding 24-hr + events, you’re not doing that. If you’re going to be particularly slow at something like Leadville, then you probably don’t want to do an 11 or 12 hour day beforehand.
But in general, if you’re an Ironman triathlete, you’d best be able to do 6 hours in zone 2 on your bike (preferably in position). If you’re a roadie prepping for masters road nationals, and the longest ride you do is 3hrs in zone 2, you’re doing it wrong IMO, but that would be an absolute minimum. As with all things, it depends.
I don’t think if you’re prepping for a 6-hour day with 3 climbs of 60-90 minutes that you should be doing 180 to 270 minutes at 90% of FTP. Odds are you’re not going to climb at that intensity for that duration anyway. It might be reasonable to do 3x60 at 80%… but that would entirely depend on the athlete.
I don’t think there’s any situation where doing 90% sweet spot workouts 4x per week is optimal. Even when I was a TR MV user I usually did a long Z2 ride in place of that 4th weekend sweet spot workout.
Yeah, re: HR caps, I found that there are so many factors influencing HR response, it just wasn’t all that practical. I would cap HR at 172bpm, and would be a few watts below my threshold, and the sets were just not very challenging. Part of the reason for this was I was doing those workouts in July and August on my trainer in my garage where it would be 88 degrees… so of course HR was through the roof to help with cooling. Another part of the reason is that when I set my 260W threshold, it was probably pretty conservative, and my 60-minute power was 255W. So doing 25 minutes of work at 255-260W just wasn’t pushing anything, really, even though my HR response was in line with the protocol.
Perhaps I am way wrong on these, but to me doing longer, RPE or just below threshold intervals is going to be more productive for most people. But again, doing those 5x5s as early threshold exposure isn’t the worst idea either. I just don’t think I would invest 3 months into those as my key weekly workouts (along with the volume).
Dr. Seiler is a much smarter man than me, but sometimes we need to remember that things that work in a lab-controlled environment don’t necessarily translate to the field… and that the demands and requirements of XC skiing might be different than some of the cycling disciplines, too. Too much reliance on HR via maxHR measurements isn’t my cup of tea, and that’s where I really diverge from Seiler’s methods (and thus some of the FTL coaches).
I have done that. Used 5x5 as some intensity introduction after bigger z2 riding. For me 5x5 threshold is useles - does nothing for me, like anything. Going lower and longer (3x10 as a starter) - I see beneftis after one week. The full block means usually some kind of gains (tte, ftp or both). I was doing also bossi style vo2 max - so basically 5x5 threshold with 30s bursts of power - great workout when I was returning to training or as a maintenance workout. Of course it’s highly personal. But my vote is no.
Yes, fully agree with that use case, and same experience. Once I started in on 2x16 at 265W (threshold by feel at that point) and then grew it to 2x20, then swapped to 3x20@90% and then 4x17-22 @90% over the course of three weeks and coupled with the volume, I built up fatigue, but also felt the gains almost immediately from there.
In the long run, I think the overall structure of the 12 weeks worked, but I would probably just skip 5x5s for me.
Personally I’ve come to agree with HighNorth that significant over/unders are more effective than riding at threshold. How to improve your lactate threshold as a cyclist — High North Performance
I’m still doing some x8-min and x10-min however its only a few blocks a year, leading up to a field test, and mostly to assist with pacing the field test.
I need combination of both. Doing HighNorth’s workouts for over a month without any visible improvements. Workouts were challenging enough and felt good, but nothing followed. Went for normal threshold - suddenly gains, and my tolerance for o/u also improved. I like sst with bursts so I always combine strady and some variable o/u style as my 2 intensity days, combined with volume always work the best. I agree that doing only normal threshold drives the adaptations but then going over threshold is significantly harder (also mentally as it feels completely different, and doing 60-80 just under FTP gives me strange intensity blanket and leads to some intensity rut - the same with sst. I can do 90-120min@90% but avoiding higher intensities create mental and physical problems).
Kurt is not a fan from the post above, but my coach always has me doing something interesting. I call it undulating periodization, not sure if it is or not, but its definitely not block training. However I’m clearly in the age group of ‘use it or lose it’ and it is what I originally mentioned to him. Recovery challenges are real. Less is more on the intervals, but when I do them, we often go full gas or pretty close to it.
I’m excited to incorporate another big block of SS into my 2023 season. Following what I did in 2021. Focus on pushing TTE to 60+ min through a combo of steady-state SS and over-unders. I found it really helped last season. Granted, so did the two VO2 blocks, but I digress. Sweet Spot rules for someone like me.
I did neither this season and rode quite a bit more low-intensity, due to injuries, and it was eye opening in terms of my numbers and race performances. Although, it appears like my sprint power is up, probably due to overall freshness. Also added 3-4kg to my body weight over the winter from strength training. Power down, weight up! 
There’s an emerging coach/podcaster that is routinely critical about sweet spot, which I don’t understand, because I think it can be very valuable when not abused.
who? I barely have time to listen to podcasts.
Coaches know what works & exercise physiologists try to figure out why.
The interesting thing about it is there’s not one way that’s “right.” I’ve seen champions come from high intensity & low volume; I’ve seen champions come from high volume that emphasizes threshold work. To me that’s the fun part of this all.
Seemingly the most important factor I’ve seen in my time as an athlete and coach isn’t a training philosophy… but rather buy-in. If the athlete believe in the training they do better. I’ll leave it to the physiologist to figure out why that is.
Your needs are definitely different from mine and most of those I coach. That said, I do have one master’s athlete where I have him go “full-gas” VO2max every other week, kind of like you mentioned. But yes, generally I like block periodization, but acknowledge that older athletes need to do more intensity with more recovery more frequently. No issues with how you’re working, considering it seems to be working for you! I actually take notes on what you’re doing since training/coaching the 50+ set isn’t my specialty at the moment, but there’s a lot of good business in that realm! (I have my copy of Fast After 50 sitting next to me, about halfway through it, too).
I’ve read all of High North’s stuff and I like many of their ideas. I’m just not sold on doing long periods of over-unders. I do them in race prep, as they discuss in one scenario - a lot over and more under (like 125% - 85%) - and I like to do those extensively as well, where I push the duration of the total work set as well as the duration of the OVER, or add a 2-4min hard start at like 110% and then do 110%-85%.
I have yet to play with extensive 105-95 sets that they also talk about. That might be something I do in a more “intensive” block of FTP (a “pull” block).
I have had far and away the most success personally with a “push” of extensive SST/Threshold followed by a “pull” of true VO2max work, followed by more “push” when it comes to FTP gains. But if you look at my training, you’ll see over-unders in there in the spring as well.
I would say “buy-in” gains you two things: consistency (which is absolutely critical), and probably some “placebo effect”.
I agree with you that there’s no one right way to do things. Most coaches end up picking one thing they can market, and sell their training methodology. I try not to do that, rather I try to train each of my athletes based on their own individual needs and availability.
But two things hold true for most of them:
Long, steady endurance riding. This is my “entering argument”. If they can’t get these done, I’m not particularly interested in coaching them for very long, and I have had a couple of guys I started with who just won’t go ride for 3 hours, let alone more. I can program around that, but their performance is also a reflection on my coaching, and I’d rather not have guys out there that people know are coached by me who are getting dropped consistently because they just refuse to develop themselves aerobically.
Progression. I’m not sure it matters tremendously WHAT you’re progressing and WHEN - I have my firm beliefs for different situations, but if you’re just doing the same thing over and over again (like, say, 8 weeks of 5x5 threshold), I don’t think that’s optimal.
Agreed.
It’s becoming fashionable for coaches to dog on products like TrainerRoad, and I think most in this thread agree that TR overdoes SST programming: too much power due to overestimated FTP for not enough duration in too many sessions. But some are taking that to the next step and saying any sweet spot is always bad, and that’s just not true IMO. Doing a base period that is entirely sweet spot with very little to no endurance riding? Yeah, I disagree with that summarily.
So it depends on what his/her specific criticism is as to whether I’d agree with them.
That’s a pretty circular argument to be honest. If the training works, the athlete believes in it.
I’d rather not name names. I think he puts out good content, but I also think that people who bash SS falsely group everyone that does it into the camp that does it too frequently. I think they also assume that most folks have the time to really benefit from the long endurance rides that they prefer over SS. However, my peer group (young masters athletes with multiple kids) generally cannot mark a weekly 4-5 hour ride on the calendar. So for people like us, mixing in 1-2 SS workouts per week (even year round) can have useful benefits. I.e. try to make up for the lack of total volume. I could be dead wrong on this, but it has worked pretty well for me.
All that is to say, I’m really looking forward to doing another winter-based TTE progression.
Inspired by all you crazies I started doing some longer sweet spot intervals and progressing through them. Started out with an easy 4x15 minute two weeks ago, then 3x20, then 2x33 (all at 90%).
Because it felt like I was simply growing more confident in my abilities to sustain these longer intervals I decided to punish myself a little today and did 1x70 @ 90%.
Going to push it out towards 1x90 over the next few weeks. I have a feeling I could pretty much do 1x80 in a few days already, but mentally I really need a breather right now. 
They aren’t much fun and I need to focus on sustaining the power just enough so I can’t really watch any series… Any tips for making time pass more quickly?
No tips on passing the time… just get the work in.
But, two other tips:
When you get up into the 70min + range, I would back the progression off to one workout per week alongside your other volume… ESPECIALLY if you are lifting too.
Don’t be afraid to be a little aggressive when progressing sweet spot. With threshold above 95%, I stick to 10%. Sweet spot, it seems most people don’t have issues doing more… like 60 - 70 - 80 - 90. I’ve done 60 - 75 - 90 in the past without much issue.
But when doing your first really extensive progression, or as a Masters athlete, or if also lifting a lot, back your frequency off when you get into those bigger single sessions.
Hey Kurt, that’s good advice coming from doing these in my late fifties and now sixty. Week over week on this 3 week loading cycle I went from 1x30-min to 1x55-min to 1x90 last weekend.
Inside I find those mentally challenging, and outside they are far easier because I’m going somewhere. The 90-min was on a long climb and that made it even easier.
A year ago I was posting about minimum effective dose, once a week is good for me. Once you are confident in doing long sustained efforts, breaking it up into smaller intervals or climbs has also worked for me. Knowing you can slay 90-120 minutes doesn’t mean you need to be always doing 1x90.
I did a little experiment a couple of days ago to try a FasCat “freestyle” sweet spot session. Basically, a warmup and then ride at sweet spot as long as you can/care to.
I used the Free Ride 120 workout and just rode 88% until I ran out of time. I did just over an hour at SS with another 30 mins warmup and cooldown.
Free Ride has 5 min intervals and since erg mode isn’t an option I had to focus on my numbers a lot more than I normally would. Throw in some mindless video (a Twitch stream in this case) just to keep the eyes busy and I was surprised with how quickly the time passed. Or at least how not slowly it passed! =)
