Why not just do the other 5 and a half for V-everesting? Quitter. 
2 Likes
Then it would not be posted in the sweetspot progression topic Kurt ;-).
But maybe one day. Who knows. When I really lost al my mind I would do a V-Everest attempt 
1 Like
All right, that time of year is rapidly approaching againā¦
I am about 10 weeks into base endurance training. Iāve hit my volume target, but now as I progress aerobic threshold time and want to add some tempo work, Iām coming to the conclusion that I just canāt sustain an extensive threshold block right now. Iām OK right now, but I recognize enough to know that week after week of 700+ TSS for me is too much to hold for more than a few weeks.
I am also not doing the October TT I had originally planned so my need to push threshold duration in the near term is gone.
Soā¦ Iām going to āstep backā, maintain volume, and reduce my intensity a bit with extensive sweet spot intervals for my next 3-week block. My goal will be to get out to 90 minutes, which Iāve done in the past. As before, I will be pretty aggressive about it since this is my third such block in training and Iām handling volume well. Where I progress threshold by no more than 10% per session (max, so 40 ā 44min for example), Iām starting at 3x20 @ 90% and will essentially progress to 90 minutes in three or four workouts (60-75-80-90, might skip the 80). After that, if I continue progressing sweet spot extensively into the next block, I will slow the progression but push out to two hours. I wonāt go beyond the 2-hour mark, and if I go out there, it might be unstructured in a longer ride where I am to sweet spot longer climbs. We have a pretty steady 30-35 minute climb here that I could even do repeats on if I wanted to.
The other new intro here is that if I do these on the trainer, Iām going to be in the TT position, so Iāll have to be cognizant of the added stress and potentially even dial the power down 5-10% since Iām not well-adapted to that position. This will be one hell of a way to do that.
So, overall, aiming for consistency, building TiZ, doing the additional tempo and aerobic threshold work alongside this, then wrapping up this block and moving back to extensive threshold work once I drop the intensity of the āoffā sessions.
I really liked carrying the threshold intensity while building volume and keeping almost all of my long rides in the low 0.6s IF, with little additional work above 0.7, but I think Iām in for overcooking if I keep 80-120 minutes of threshold in along with adding relatively short tempo sessions and a bit of aerobic threshold into the long rides. This seems a reasonable compromise.
In December 2021, I did my progression in about a month, and simultaneously progressed my long rides out to 4hrs and aerobic threshold riding out to 2 hour sessions before going tempo and progressing that. Obviously my training has changed quite a bit since then as my volume is up almost 50% overall.
1 Like
As a separate discussion topic, I have a few of my athletes about to start a sweet spot progression as well. One of them is new to structured training and struggles to get through 5x5 at threshold (I knowā¦ and yes, I am about 95% certain his threshold is not overestimatedā¦ this is a mental toughness thing, IMO). SO Iām starting HIM at a 3x10 at 90%, and progressing him as I would progress a threshold set for others (conservatively and very slowly).
Meanwhile, I have a masters athlete whoās going to start at 3x20 and move quickly. Training is very individual, so keep that in mind as you peruse this 2600 post threadā¦ what worked for someone else may not work well or be the right prescription for YOU.
3 Likes
Iām curiousā¦.Would you have a XC MTB racer do one of these SS progressions?
Probably, yes. Base training for most of us is similar. āItās an aerobic sport, dammit!ā But that can depend on overall volume, too. Even then, at higher volume, you might do a more tempoish progression than true SST, but it all blends together anyway.
1 Like
Struggling to get through traditional 5x5 VO2 intervals is one thing, but 5x5 at threshold 
How exactly is his threshold being estimated?
were you actually thinking of jumping over extensive tempo/SS and going straight to threshold?
Based on having done quite a bit of threshold work the past few months, I was just going to keep going with it, but took a step back and looked at my overall plan and it didnāt make any sense once I dropped the fall TT and now have zero events coming until January.
PDC testing, and Iām being conservative with it at that. There could still be some trainer setup or lack of cooling or erg mode/death spiral issues here, too. This is why athlete feedback is importantā¦ some really get that, others itās more challenging.
1 Like
What did your 10 weeks of base look like? Iām assuming not all just Z2 if you were throwing in some threshold as well? When in oneās season would you recommend a sweetspot block?
My A event is at the end of April. Iām tempted to do some sweetspot now just because I enjoy it and it helps on my local routesā¦Iām a bigger guy and need some power/muscular endurace for climbing. Definitely donāt want to do too much, too early though.
Thanks!!
My typical planned week:
M: Short threshold intervals (20 - 30 minutes TiZ) + Z2 1-2hrs
T: Long ride, .6 IF 3-5hrs
W: Neuromuscular or AeT work (~.7IF) for 60-90min
R: Recovery ride (.4IF for up to an hour)
F: Short threshold intervals (same)
Sa: Long ride (same)
Su: Off
I did progress duration of the threshold work, and then the last couple of weeks expanded beyond 32 minutes out to 36 and 40, last workout was a standard 2x20. Threshold has gone up about 15 watts by feel (but would need confirmation testing for that).
Iām out to 14+ hours consistently and managing that fatigue pretty well. I did 700TSS last week. Up around 400 this week already and will probably end up about 800. Those will be my two biggest weeks, but it was planned that way as Iām headed to Maui with the family next week. Otherwise, my typical weeks were closer to 600TSS for reference.
I was watching my EF and decoupling on long rides, using those as keys for when to progress duration. In addition Iām paying attention to my aerobic TIS impulse. I donāt plan around it, but I can sustain quite a bit of work when I keep things like aerobic TIS 7 or 8, anaerobic TIS at 1.
Iām pretty gassed right now, but a big part of that was overdoing Mondayās ride, which became nearly 3 hours with 2x20 threshold in there (for reference AeTIS was 7 and AnTIS was 7 as wellā¦ those are usually going to make me pretty tired!), and the following that with a 4:15 ride on Tuesday. As was mentioned elsewhere, part of the problem riding threshold with high volume is it can be a knifeās edge, so the SST progression gives me a bit more latitude as Iām entering my heavy lifting phase for the next four weeks too.
FInally, I was doing 5 weeks on - 1 week off for those two cycles. Now that my volume is up and Iām doing a bit more aerobic intensity, Iāll switch back to 3-1 cycles.
Planning sweet spot and some tempo in this block, then will switch back and start with an extensive threshold block in late October, likely at a higher FTP value.
2 Likes
Hi guys,
Just wanted to get your view on SS progression indoor.
As Iām shifting towards events which involve a lot of long and sustained climbs (1h+ for each climb is the standard) I was wondering how youād tackle progression indoor vs outdoor.
I actually asked Fascat on their recent podcast how they switch from base to race for these events and what they said is that they simulate these long rides in their plans as racing season approaches.
To be frank my question was more detailed than that. In fact, Iād asked what the difference between winter base period with SS would differ from those simulation rides during build / race period.
To cut a long story short, is SS indoor during winter just āmaintenanceā/early progression with reduced TiZ while waiting to do the real long and extensive simulations outdoor?
Honestly I do not see myself doing 4 hours + indoor and at the same time I see that 90 mins of SS, although hard indoor, would not really make a difference for the events Iād be targeting.
For reference: Iām in the northern hemisphere so now approaching winter.
Good question.
My personal view/experienceāand Iām not a coach or anythingāis that indoor progressions are slower then outside. I try to get the (increasing) time in zone, but (especially for tempo/sweetspot) am not to concerned about the structure and progression. On Zwift just go tempo for a while until uncomfortable, then stand a bit and lower intensity for some leg stretching, and then go tempo again, repeat until the available time is up.
This way I can 30-45 minutes of tempo in an hour of riding. Obviously the more often this is done, the easier it becomes and the total length of sessions (and thus TiZ) can be increased.
However, if the indoor period stretches out all the way to February for instance, then Iād look for more structure and also other intensities.
^^ this.
Humor aside, your time restrictions and willingness to do long trainer sessions are the limiting factor between traditional outdoor base and indoor sweet spot/base. There are a handful of TR podcasts that go into this a bit.
The high level summary of it all is you donāt need to do 4 hour simulation rides to race 4 hours, nor do you need to mimic hour long climbs to race hour long climbs. The maximum performance goal is to elicit as much aerobic adaptations (increased mitochondria, muscle mass, blood plasma, fatigue resistance, etc) as possible in base. While 4 hours at steady z2 might be optimal, a 97% solution (I made that number up) is sweet spot where you can get more aerobic stimulus and adaptation with sub threshold work in less time.
The power output going uphill vs power output on a flat? Same same. Watts are roughly equal to watts
You can indeed build to 90 minute or 2hr challenging sweet spot workouts and then when you go outside again, do a 4 hour z2 ride. I did this last year. Body held up just fine, but my bum was pretty sore. It was also hard to refrain from going out too hard because I was so used to plug and chugging at 92%
Personally I think indoor training is an opportunity to selectively target different energy systems, but it is not good for specific race prep. You should see it more like going to the gym - you do indoor workouts to improve some aspects of physiology, eg work on vo2max or threshold. Personally I think z2-z3 rides are better done outside (unless you donāt mind spending 4h+ on the trainer), and I also have reservations about sprints indoors, because I think technique and terrain matters too much for them.
So Iād do a combination of threshold and vo2max work indoors, and do all the long sweetspot workouts outdoors, preferable on climbs.
1 Like
Nailed it. 
3 Likes
Always think of this when this issue is raised (Caveat, I donāt train like this)
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=4193285#4193285
https://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin/gforum.cgi?post=4196846#4196846
Thanks all for your input. Oh I remember that blog post very well.
But to be honest currently my thinking is more along the lines of: would I really want to go to an event with a TTE only a fraction of what is demanded by the course (i.e. training in SS for 90mins when Iād really need twice as much)?
Fascat and their team suggested actually extending as much as possible, which seems to go against the blog.
I also think, but please correct me, that in particular for long distance events with considerable elevation gains the volume and TiZ must be there.
Iām just not sure how to make the most of the indoor training during base until it will be possible to go out again. Should I just extend SS say up to 60/90 mins?
Much of what you are discussing is the difference between āidealā and āpossibleā. Meaning itās all great and fine to do the long ride work with long events in mind, but thatās not possible for everyone. I also believe the long stuff is not ānecessaryā in every case, but that depends largely on your goals for that event.
If you are aiming for the best of best performances that you want from yourself, the long work may well be appropriate and needed. But lacking that time, itās entirely possible to get the bulk of the training needed in the abbreviated means discussed above. Even if all you do is 2 hour max workouts, itās not as though your legs fall off at the 121 minute mark. People can and do stretch past that ālimitā all the time.
What happens after that timeframe will vary on many factors, but itās totally possible to push well beyond that to ranges of double or more. Itās just that you have to plan for how that affects you in ways that may differ a bit compared to actually hitting longer training sessions. Much comes down to pacing, fit & comfort, as well as fueling at those longer times. Get those right and you can have a very good result and experience stepping well past your ātraining time limitā.
Plenty of us have done it with great success. I donāt think people should limit their chosen event purely from training time. You do have to make the best of the time you have, and then plan your event and set your expectations appropriately, but itās quite possible and attainable.
For those working within time restrictions, but wanting to do those longer events, you train the best you can in those limits and then adjust on the big day.
5 Likes