Suprathreshold intervals are killing me

Just completed red lake +8 for the first time. I’ve tried before but bailed.

I can agree with a few of the posters in here, I’m just not used to suprathreshold having done mainly base workouts. It was tough from the first interbals, I think i took the signs that it was more like a VO2 on the earlier intervals, by 4/5 I realised it didn’t get out of control and managed to hang in.

Intrigued to see if I can do the 48 at 108 next week, SPB is definitely targeting a weakness of mine be it mental or actually physical.

I think there’s fewer complaints about suprathreshold because they only exist in a couple of plans. I had Raymond +7 scheduled, but didn’t have time for extra Z2 so I lowered to Raymond +6 yesterday. I was the first person to load that workout since May 30th. I’d wager most every over-under session gets done a lot more often.

Suprathreshold is way harder, IMO. Backpedals help me if I need them. I always want to nail the first one or two intervals. As fatigue builds, I gun for at least halfway, and then if I’m falling apart I take a 10-15s backspin, and try to finish. I got through Raymond cleanly yesterday, the first time I’ve finished a TR Supra workout without backpedaling. Give it time!

Suprathreshold is tough, no doubt, but if you can bare to look at your workout screen, Coach Chad does offer some really great advice.

I use the first interval to find my cadence. Usually that’s around 88-90RPM. HR ramps nice and slowly and I feel in control.

Check your grip on the bars. Try to just rest your hands. You’re not going to hit a pothole. Staying lose really does help reduce overall fatigue. I find this especially true as you begin the interval.

Adjust your position. Challenge yourself to do one minute in the drops, one minute on the hoods and repeat. This helps break the intervals down.

As has already been mentioned, a brief 15-20 second back pedal isn’t going to render the session a failure if it means you can hit and complete the next interval.

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Out of interest - how do you know when a workout was last loaded?

If you look up a workout in the search bar on the TR website and scroll down to the bottom you can select “all rides”. You’ll then see everyone who has loaded that workout recently.

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On the workout detail, click the “All Rides” tab near the bottom, next to My Rides.

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Much appreciated. Neat feature - it’s only taken me 5 years to find!!
Just to contribute to this thread - I find these suprathreshold brutal - and some a step too far. I am thinking of submitting a question to @johnathan and the AACCP on how best to approach these workouts when it is clear that despite an accurate FTP and enough mental fortitude, they are beyond the natural capability of the rider.

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This is probably the issue. An FTP derived from a ramp test may not actually be accurate for that individual.

So I agree. But I’ve also done the 2x8 and 1x20.
The reality is the Ramp will generate the lowest FTP of these protocols.
This suggests I need to focus on training my MAP or put simply my aerobic capacity. These workouts do exactly that - but I’d like to know Chad’s view on how to get the best out of them if you can’t complete the intervals.
From memory, dialling them down too much will change the training stimulus, but if I go into the red too much then I’ll be toast for the last 1 or 2 and be able to sit mid SS at best.
It may be the best way is to choose a workout that has reduced time at Suprathreshold or longer rest intervals and build from there.

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I’m questioning suprathreshold. It seems that 102% has very little benefit over 99%, with a whole lot more fatigue. I am considering switching my workouts to have the same workout score, but not be suprathreshold. Thoughts?

I’m of the firm belief that walking the threshold line is a slightly moving target, depending on the time of day, stress level, how well you ate, temperature outside, etc. At a 250W FTP my experience is that the threshold line can waver as much as +/- 5W, from 245 on a bad day to 255 on a good day. And then layered on top of that is whether my fitness is in a period of increasing fitness, decreasing fitness, or static.

So if you agree and are following along, 99% is 248 and 102% is 255 both of which fall into that wavering line you are looking to walk around.

Practically speaking I’ve found doing intervals less than 20 minutes at or around threshold generates the same fatigue, depending on the day.

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Depends on number of intervals :slight_smile: 4x20@98% is way different than 102% in terms of fatigue (for me). I do not like suprathreshold just above FTP (102%) as a rule - doing 102% means you spend quite some time above that line due natural power spikes. There is always a but…

  1. As you said if you are on a good day, sometimes it is nice to rip harder if you feel good. Not every interval but last two for example.
  2. Breaking FTP rut. Doing the same FTP for a long time causes often to feel too comfortable with same power. Going slightly harder can be helpful to brake this monotony. Recently I have done 3x(6x3 with 1 min brakes)@105% and felt really good with the power. Can be an indication that FTP was moving or it was only a good day but it is always worth checking.
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Why do 4x20 threshold intervals? Most coaches I’ve seen recommend 40-60min time in zone for threshold workout sessions, even for experienced high-level cyclists. I get the impression beyond that one isn’t getting much additional benefit and just adding extra fatigue and stress.

Because if your TTE is 60 min it is nice to go over your TTE, especially in later phases of the block. I always prefer to go longer than harder when doing threshold block and you want to push your body to add additional stress. You get the benefit like with any other workpit that push your curve to the right. Not to mention mental thing - when I can do this quite comfortably I know my extensive FTP training is working. My go to workouts are 5x15 and 4x20 (both @97%). And those are good indicators for me.

Extensive ftp work is upto 90min TiZ by WKO, it all depened on your TTE and what you want to improve - raw watts or push the curve to the right.

Interesting. I’ve watched a number of Tim Cusik’s WKO and training webinars and believe he proscribes in the 40-60min TiZ range and he mostly coaches pro’s now. Considering he’s the product lead one might think that what WKO shows would be closer to what he proscribes.

I progress my interval duration and TiZ for everything except VO2max over the course of a block, so I’m with you on the the extensive aerobic / threshold training. The totals just seem excessive to me, but I guess individuals respond differently to training stress and require more or less than others.

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Reopening this thread because 4x 8 in POL MV build are hard as f.
I can do 4x4 at 120%, I know power percentage doesn’t matter for Vo2max workouts. I Wonder why 8 minutes at 104% suck so much?Anyways
I got through 3sets today barely, skipped the last one.
I did do some extra volume last week which may have caught up to me. Last week I got through all 4 but had lots of back pedals the 3rd interval and only 1 backpedal on the last interval.
I’m usually on top of nutrition and sleep has been good.
I’m mostly wondering since I’ve never done 4x8 before, is my body just not used to these efforts?
Im going to cut my volume a little and hopefully next week I can power through them.
I don’t want to turn this into an ftp debate because before this block I was doing 60+ mins of threshold, my PL was just above 6.

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What rest periods?

Last week was 4 minutes rest, this week I picked one with 5 minutes rest. I figured longer rest might help

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Assuming you’re talking about the 4x4s you’re crushing rather than the 4x8s you’re struggling with, that’d be part of it. 4 or 5 minutes rest will nearly fully replenish your anaerobic reserves, leaving you with the last 60-90 seconds of each of those intervals to do with low anaerobic contribution.

The 4x8s, although at a lower power, will still be depleting that anaerobic reserve and even if it takes twice as long (so 5 minutes instead of 2.5) to get to low levels, you’re having to gut out twice as much time on just the aerobic system.

You could ‘prove’ the above theory by doing the 4x4s at the same power but reducing the rest to 2 minutes - I’d expect they would feel similar then.

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That makes sense, I wonder if do another block or 2 if it would help? I have one more micro cycle after this of POL MV build. I might do base POL after to really work on these kind of efforts. It feels good in a way to find a weakness of mine.

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