A buddy and I are the same size and ride style and he just got a fancy new Canyon Spectral bike, 150/150, slack head tube, nearly an enduro bike. But the thing pedals really well so he thought…what if I put xc tires on it?
Today we rode a few loops to compare the bikes. He has the garmin single sided pedals, I have a quarq. He ran his suspension open and I have a cane creek sussy post (don’t make fun, I’m in my 50’s LOL)
Now…these weren’t crazy trails, just flat florida with some bumps, roots, and a lot of turning. Overall…he was putting out 10% less power.
After riding them back to back it started to really feel like the bumps were holding the hard tail back, especially the fast choppy rooty stuff. The back wheel just feels slow in the rough(er) stuff. I’ve got 18#f, 19#r with inserts at 195# so I’m not running high tire pressures or anything.
We’re gonna run more loops switching his pedals back and forth and see if we get similar results, maybe he just puts out 10% more power with his R leg or something.
Anybody try anything like this? Could cushy 6" bikes be faster over mild to moderate terrain vs. hardtails? I’ve got “new 6” bike fever"
I don’t think it’s that the long travel bike is faster. I think full suspension is faster almost all the time unless it’s tarmac and/or uphill where it’s very weight critical.
It’s so hard to lay the power down smoothly on a HardTail by comparison.
It’s similar to the argument for and against lockout systems. If I only had to use one thing, it’d be full suspension, fully open. The loss of efficiency is very small these days and the power delivery is smoother IMHO, especially when you can look at the ability to power away over the small to medium chunk and roots.
I thought the suspension post was pretty good at letting me stay on the power over chatter but I agree, full sus makes it easier so maybe that is the difference.
I wouldn’t read too much into that, there are many factors such as differences in weight, tires and riding style among other things. Oh, and a leg imbalance, which alone could account for the 10 % difference. The other thing is that to my knowledge Florida is relatively flat, so I reckon you haven’t tried long, sustained climbs.
As a general rule all other things being equal, modern full sus bikes are faster in most circumstances. But more importantly than that, what kind of bikes do you enjoy riding? I am itching for a hardtail even though I have a fully now. Can’t explain why. On the other hand, on more challenging terrain, an XC+ fully would be another choice if I had unlimited financial resources.
What feels better to ride? Before you answer 150 mm, I’d recommend you try out a few more bikes.
since you haven’t mentioned racing, one stupid question: what is your goal?
Same (body) weight, similar tires, and we rode together at the same pace.
Ha that is an understatement! It’s super flat around here! But looking at the math, adding 5# to your bike doesn’t make any difference on climbs. I mean, obviously it makes some difference but when you look at the numbers, it’s shockingly small when you go from 200# + 35# vs. 200# + 28#s. Now you notice it in the way the bike handles and when you pick it up but if the heavy bike is just a little faster up or down it’ll be faster overall.
100% agree on this and I hope we can get this issue sorted.
It’s an excellent question “What’s the fastest bike for me on my terrain?” Modern XC bikes are 120mm with 2.4" tires. Well that’s great for 140# UCI pros but what about 200# 50 year old dudes (mostly) flat terrain? I’m not into huge hucks but I get more than 60cm of air like 100 times on our trails so do I want a condition 3 bike or condition 4 bike? The big bike was so much more comfortable to ride it was ridiculous!
The body position is another big difference, I feel like I can really lay down the power on my bike, on the 150mil bike it’s super upright. So…power output is another factor, our rides on day 1 to testing were pretty chill.
Rain this weekend then work then … it’ll be middle or end of next week before I have more data.
Managed to get out today and run some laps switching the garmin power pedals. I rode laps 2 and 3, he rode laps 1 and 4 and the HR is his HR for all 4 laps
Spectral
lap 1 14:36 183w ave 145bpm
lap 2 14:13 153w ave 161bpm
Epic
lap 3 14:25 160w ave 160bpm
lap 4 14:18 152 ave 160bpm
Not sure what happened on lap 1 but based on this…I ordered a spectral. Heck, I wanted one anyway right? LOL
I’m planning on doing more laps switching cranks (quarq power) and wheels so we’ll have more data in the future.
I think it’s fantastic you ordered a bike that you wanted, but I can’t make heads or tails of your comparison data lol. Looks like it took significantly more Watts lap one, and about the average lap four?
I hear you about lap 4, he rode it 7 seconds faster on 8 watts less. Not sure about that either but a little variation is probably to be expected. If I can get like 10 laps on each bike with the same powermeter it might start to show some real trends.
As for a lot of laps…how much do you think different days matter? Like if I ride a bunch of laps one day on one bike then ride a bunch of laps on the other bike on another day, how much of the variation will be due to the day vs. variations between the bike?
I think the variance is massive for making genuine, measurable differences. That doesn’t mean you can’t feel the difference in your ass-ometer and in smiles-per-minute.
I know you said you’ve already ordered, but considering you’re riding (presumably) XC stuff, would the Lux Trail be a better fit?
That’s just it, the big bike feels so much slower than the hardtail it’s ridiculous but it’s not testing that way!
Well I’m perfectly willing to accept that a 120/120 bike is faster for a 150# UCI pro on a cross country course but when you look at 200# regular guys, how much do you give up going to a 150/160 bike? That’s the question I’m trying to answer.
The big bike is way more fun to ride, that’s certain!
If it makes you feel good, that’s the number one requirement.
I’m surprised that you find the long travel bike more fun, if it also feels slower (even though it’s not measurably so).
I’m a firm believer in the 120/120 67°HTA bikes being perfect for a lot of us. I love the idea of having a long travel bike to take on some more gnarly trails. The truth is though, I’d never use it as my riding is all XC and when I come down the black trails it’s just slower than my mates on their 170mm rigs.
I like your tack though, HardTails are for the lightest of riders and those with a contrarian bent . Full Suss is the best.
Thread revival! So in the time between then and now I’ve done a lot of laps and gotten some decent data. For example, here are some runs in baggies vs. skinsuit
I sold the Spectral…just a bit too much bike…and now have a 2022 YT Izzo and the 2018 Specialized Epic Hardtail. I’ve been racing the YT in our local(ish) endurance series and have been having a really good time. Thing is…the hardtail still feels way faster. I mean, subjectively, it isn’t even close. The hardtail just leaps forward with a gentle push. The Izzo feels good…but not super blazingly fast. So…I’m revisiting the HT/full sussy issue.
First, I’d like to run the powermeters that are on the bike (no F1 pit crew available to swap cranks). The YT has a quarg powermeter and the Epic has a power2max. Yesterday I did a few runs in the garage on the Hammer H1 trainer set at 180 watts. I calibrated between runs and got two on the YT, three on the Epic. The YT with the quarg read 188 both times, the P2M on the epic read 178, 176, and 179.
My take on this is that if I rode the YT/quarg and the average power said 188 on my garmin, I’d actually be putting 180 watts to the rear wheel. And if I rode the P2m on the epic and the garmin says 178 then I’d be putting the same 180 watts to the rear wheel. That’s my plan for tomorrow. I’ll do a few runs and keep my average power at 188 and 178 and see what the H1 reads. If I get consistent readings of 180 then I’ll be all set for some laps on Sunday.
Does this sound reasonable? Does this sound like a decent way to standardize the power?
OK, also, I’m going to run 800mm bars on both bikes and try for the same body position (put a higher rise stem and wider bars on the HT vs. stock). And I am going to run the same model of tire up front and in the rear. 2.6" kenda booster pro front and rene herse fleecer ridge tires in back (these are what I have available). Both chains were in the chain spa today and are freshly waxed. No clothing changes during the runs and alternate bikes every run.
That’s the plan! It’ll be Sunday for the laps so I might have traffic issues but I’ll try to get some data.
With the freshly waxed chain I can believe a little more efficiency from them…and Quarg was consistent. As was the garmin pedals…although not very close to the actual power (has elliptical ring on it so that might be part of it). Power2max read 10 watts low to 2 watts high so not consistent enough today.
If I would have just stopped after 6 laps I’d be happy with my data. Grrrrrrr!
This was in the garage topping out at 91 humid degrees and I used the volcano circuit on zwift for the laps. Drank 3 X 16 oz and still lost nearly 4 pounds. I mention this only because heart rate data might be our best bet for testing these bikes. I got my third bottle and filled it with ice and water between laps 6 and 7 so maybe that is a confounder too. Sure tasted good though!
It’s hard to compare hardtail vs full-sus based on just power. It’s not that full-sus requires more power necessarily but it’s harder to put down that power when your bike is bobbing up and down and thus requires more effort overall, even though the power output would remain the same. You should also monitor heart rate and rpe to make conclusions about efficiency. Just like riding a hardtail downhill in rowdy terrain doesn’t require more power but it’s definately more taxing in most cases.
If your FS is bobbing so much that you can’t get a smooth pedaling rhythm, you need to tune the suspension.
Use the compression knobs on your fork and shock to stiffen the bike when on smooth terrain. And open it back up when the trail gets rowdy again.
In my very unscientific testing, over anything beyond short-track efforts, my FS bike is almost always faster than my hardtail. Even when the hardtail feels faster, it rarely is.
You tangentially bring up a couple of things. Another of our theories is that power to the ground may result in identical times yet it might take more from the rider to create the same power. Hr may pick that up.
Another thought is that the terrain or riding intensity might not be high enough to show a difference between the bikes. Kinda like a corvette and a Buick will both be able to drive 55 mph on a straight road. Personally I hope this doesn’t turn out to be the case lol
The point was that putting down x number of watts on a fs trail bike with suspension open is harder than putting down that same x watts on a hardtail (on a smooth surface). And thus making conclusions just based on power isn’t really cutting it. Lap times, rpe and heart rate should also be considered equally.
And yes, a full-sus xc bike is usually the fastest - not arguing with that.
. Full Suss is the best.
