Well to be fair one is always leaving watts on the table eh? We’re talking 4w/kg. I’m 52, every ftp test or race I do I put down lifetime best power. I ride (outside of races) mostly z2. What does it take to get to 4 w/kg? well for me it’s a lot z2 apparently. What will it take to get to 4.5 w/kg? A bigger fan. (the last ftp test I did you could’ve cooked an egg on me, well maybe poached one).
As for genetic ability. Ive been 30 lbs overweight most of my life (between bouts of fitness). I was never an athlete, never really did endurance sports, I was an actor, then a computer guy. Started riding my bike in 2015, had my (previous) biggest year in 2017. I’ve been steadily increasing my load for going on two years now after a year off the bike that saw me gain what I can only guess was something like 40lbs. Depression, likely symptoms of type II. I thought turning 50 was some wall, turns out that wasn’t true, the wall was in my mind. What I have is a penchant for the ridiculous arbitrary goal and apparently an iron crotch.
Every gain at this point is a lifetime best. I have no issues with riding at threshold in races, the ftp test I did in december I rode an hour power test. I’ll likely do another when I turn 53 in may. My threshold and hour power are not more than 5 watts different if I had to guess. Though as the power ratchets up the heat becomes an issue…
We are all different, that is definitely true. Would I recommend what I do to anyone? no. I like our OP and his joy of exploration. Seeing a mountain in the distance, and then ending up on top of that mountain at the end of the day. Glorying in big numbers, big climbs, big calorie expenditures. Measuring life in miles ridden, sights seen and looking back and thinking…I did that? I’m amazing. :D. Spending hours on an indoor trainer trying to make a number on a graph? That takes a very special person. Me.
I went from perhaps just over 3w/kg (220w) to near 4w/kg (270w) in my first 6 months of proper structured training. Then perhaps another 6-12 months on top to go north of 4w/kg
That was 10 years ago now and during that time I have hovered just over 4w/kg. Regardless of coached, self coached, or using TR. Volume always between 5 to 12 hrs a week, depending on time of year and whether that includes strength sessions with weights or not.
I was absolutely rubbish in PE at school, in the last few on xc running sessions, no good on the track but all through those years I rode my bike and despite not starting training properly until I was 34, I find myself at about 4.2w/kg.
So I both feel blessed and also that anyone can get near 4w/kg. Depends how honest you want to be with yourself as to how much you like the beer, how many sweets and junk you eat, how many times you’ve done no training in a week. I don’t watch my diet but generally do eat good quality food. I barely drink. But am I on the bike for 3 decent turbo sessions and an outdoor pretty much every week. And when I’m off the bike through injury, I prioritise my recovery. And my family understand that so that I’m in a good place with them when the training and the recovery is done.
I think it’s been mentioned in @grwoolf posts where they mention complacency and that’s the bit that strikes me. Year on year it’s harder to make gains or even feel bothered about maintaining the effort. The effort to not eat loads more chocolate. To not lob a few more chips on my plate. The effort to not see the TR podcast’s advice on carbs as an excuse to pile high my plate with carbs. Etc etc. But I don’t stop believing I can still make progress at 44, even if it never seems to happen like it did when I was fresh to all this
Absolutely agree on the complacency. I’m pretty sure I haven’t really slowed down much, even close to 50 now, but keeping the weight off and doing life altering 1 minute efforts is just harder.
Maybe OP never plans on riding a 40K TT, or being in an early break in a 50 minute, 4 corner crit. Maybe his goal is to be able to hold 3w/kg for 6 hours and crush his next gravel race, and he arrives at that number by estimating 0.75 IF for 6 hours. That’s fine, but even if he accomplishes that task, it doesn’t mean his FTP is 4w/kg.
There are definitely some grizzled beasts out there who can shake up a group ride. I’m thinking of one guy in his 60s here who I sometimes ride with who can give much younger guys a flogging on hills amidst a 120km ride. These aren’t your usual little pimples to be sprinted up; they’re proper climbs where we gain over 200m of altitude & have to settle in. I’m 43 at 4w/kg so I reckon he’s somewhere around 4.5w/kg.
I feel like I’ve been doing a bunch of specificity too. Lots of threshold workouts. But definitely can do more blocks of VO2. I always thought I gotta do more threshold to improve my FTP, so I didn’t focus too much on VO2. But that is not the case since I got about 5-10w from a 3-week VO2 block. Now i’m back on threshold to improve TTE at my new FTP. not sure if I just keep switching between ftp and vo2 blocks from here on out or what… ::
Threshold & sub-threshold will work but you may come to a point where gains will be limited. In the description for Three Fools -1 (3×30’@90%):
Build your fitness to a point where you can remain this close to your FTP for durations this long and it’s probably time to reassess your FTP or push up your aerobic ceiling with some concentrated VO2max work.
Per his follow up post, about 1000 hours in 2 years and 8 months (if I was reading that correctly). So we’re talking about ~7-8 hours per week for less than 3 years. I’m not discounting his progress or achievements, but that is not even in the ballpark of high volume training (TR high volume plans are not high volume outside of their time crunched target audience). Many amateurs do twice that per week with the really serious folks pushing over 15 hours/week. A big volume week here and there (or even for a few months at a time) isn’t the same as consistent high volume training. I’m not saying we can’t get gains through specificity, but I don’t think there is much debate that you need big volume to approach your aerobic potential. While we all know the outliers who are 5+ w/kg on under 10 hours, but the vast majority of the really strong riders I know are doing big volume to get there.
I’ve been stuck floating around 3.9 and 4.0 since Sept 2023, I started riding mid summer 2020 and started structured training mid April 2022.
FTP went from 175 to 236 but my weight has also increased from 56kg to 59kg (I’m ~59.4kg right now but will wait to my next FTP detection and update it then if still running >59kg consistently).
From December 2022 to my last FTP increase in Jan 2024 my FTP has only changed by 19 watts.
2023 for me was 380.5 hours on the bike, mostly on TR, with very little outdoor riding and some racing. Little to no time in the gym.
This year I have started going back to the gym, trying to do weight training once per week at the moment with hopes to work up to 2x a week. Current focus is 1x Sweet spot progression at 90%, 1x VO2Max LST workout (5min intervals), 1x 3h-3h30m Z2 workout once per week progressing in intensity and 2x low level Z2 workouts per week as well to target 7-8 hours per week. Have been setting power PRs all along my all time curve but found before I shifted to focusing on SS and VO2, I was struggling with progressing through Threshold workouts like Yukon and Wheel -2 with a warmup, endurance interval, threshold intervals and then endurance interval. Hoping with the VO2 and SS progress if I go back to these style of workouts in the future I can get through them better.
I feel like I have the potential with my current lifestyle to hit 240 watts (maybe my weight will be 60kg by then so will still be at 4w/kg lol) but not sure if I will be able to get much past that. 250 watts or more seems unlikely given how my progression has slowed (3 watts from Oct 2023 and now where I haven’t had an increase since Jan 2024).
The other thing different from last winter is that I did traditional base, all 3 blocks but then found the transition back to intensity tough, this year I’ve kept up with VO2 work, hopefully that will make me a bit more snappy and responsive this year as I feel I generally have a slow wind up.
The most encouraging part of 2024 so far compared to 2023 is that I’m handling fatigue a lot better, this time last year I was bouncing in an out of 7-10 days periods where I could barely turn the pedals to do Z2 rides, let alone do progressive intensity work, I kept burning myself out with my progression rate and then having to spend a couple weeks recovering. Fuelling and sleeping better I think has helped this but I think it has also contributed to my weight creeping up. However, I feel generally 4 w/kg at 60kg is faster than 4w/kg at 56kg.
I know I’m just beating the “more volume” drum again, but that’s likely what it would take to see significant increases at this point. Your training looks smart and it’s great to continue tweaking the approach to keep finding a few more watts, but at some point volume is probably needed for significant additional gains. It sounds like more volume doesn’t work for your current lifestyle and obligations (or maybe desires), but there are likely gains to be had if you ever decide to pursue them.
For many years, I put in ~350 hours and my FTP would peak around 285 during the season, maybe hit 290 a couple years. In 2019, kids were away at college and I was travelling less for work. The extra time on my hands translated to more training. I’ve been at around 550 hours per year since then and my FTP peaks around 305 and has been up around 315 (probably more like 320 in 2020 when I trained over 600 hours, but I hated doing ramp tests). It wasn’t until I was in my 50’s with some extra time that I was able to significantly break out of the ~285 range. I just retired last year and I am looking to add more volume this year to see what happens. At my age, it’s a win to just keep up with prior year numbers, but maybe I still have some watts to find.
I totally get that not everyone has the time or desire to put in a bunch of hours. Is an extra 200 hours of training per year worth an extra 20 watts? For me, I love riding/training and racing my bike, so the hours are fun and the extra watts are a bonus. And my ~550 hours per year isn’t really high volume compared to what many strong riders are doing. I’m lucky to crack the top 5 for weekly mileage on our club’s weekly mileage stats, some of them are doing over 800 hours a year (often the gals putting in huge hours, a few of them are pretty elite amateurs).
Biggest week I’ve done was 753 TSS, 13 hours 31 mins, that was with 2 TR workouts which I got power PRs within, commuting 5 days in a row by bike and one big ~6 hour group ride on the Sunday.
In the past I’ve found myself doing Z2 work that is too low in order to recover during 6-8 hour weeks but still get my hours in, so was doing a lot of workouts like Avallanos and Watchung with avg HR around 100. When I was talking to a coach (who declined working with me said he wasn’t going to have enough time this season due to other obligations) he pointed that out, that I was spending 2.5-3 hours a week doing active recovery rather than Z2 (that was intentional) but he suggested increasing the intensity of those rides, so now I’ve been doing stuff like Epaulet and McDonald instead, which has put my avg HR 116-124 looking at a few, so maybe a bit more productive and with wattages for these workouts ~20 watts higher on avg than last fall’s Z2 workouts.
I think eventually I would like to get to something like x1 VO2 or Anaerobic (depending on training phase) 1h15 to 1h30, x1 SS or Threshold 1h to 1h30 ( alot of the SS90 workouts are 1 hour), 2x 1h30 low Z2, x1 3h to 3h30 progressive Z2 (progressing my Z2 PL, this week is Marsh).
That would be ~9h30 best case, ~8 hours worst case, which would be a progression of volume for me.
Once I get back to commuting by bike, thats roughly 6.5 hours alone, with that I would ditch the x2 low Z2 but still do the 2 intensity workouts and the long Z2 on the weekend if not racing. That would be around 11.75 hours per week but the commuting efforts will be messy and not sustained in specific pwoer zones so kind of junk miles in comparison to TR workouts.
I’m not sure if I can progress in volume any more than that without getting back into burn out this year.
My experience, you don’t burn out from volume, but rather intensity. I have doubled my TSS and have worked myself up to regular 1000+ TSS weeks. I never get burned out. I just get fatigued. As soon as I start workouts over FTP, that’s where I have to be careful and really manage my workouts.
What adaptations that affect FTP are elicited by “specificity” that are not stimulated by endurance only riding?
I saw my 5 minute power increase from 4.1w/kg to 4.5w/kg Between January 2023 and July 2023, yet I only did 5 VO2Max workouts in that period. No matter what training blocks I’ve done my fractional utilisation is always 80% give or take 1%
I did nothing, literally nothing until my 34s. Then I discovered cycling and have been training since. I’m 42 now and I’m about 4.0w/kg 4.3 being a peak.
I think the “secret” is consistency. I’ve been always riding since started. Coach, no coach, TR, self-coach. But always riding minimon 8hr/wk.
Started structured training in 2022 when I got the idea I wanted to race Leadville. Signed up for Zwift, followed by TR soon after. I wasn’t a rookie on a bike, but with no “real” endurance training background of any sort started @ 3w / kg.
TR LV took me to ~3.6 in a year. Started working with a coach (KB) early 2023. Volume was 500-600 hours last year, peaked at an 18hr week. Made it to right around 4w/kg by early summer, raced Leadville, took some time off, then did the entire fall with Endurance, Tempo, and Sweet spot building back up to 12-14 hour weeks. Put on 10W between August and the end of the year with the only “intensity” being some SST and mostly endurance / tempo volume.
Small bump in the road with Covid right after New Years, but currently probably sitting at 4.2 w/kg ish coming out of base (just finished a dedicated VO2 block but in a rest week and haven’t tested again) and getting ready to start steadily increasing volume again.
46 years old mid-pack amateur right now, full time desk job, but no kids and do get to work from home 3-4 days a week. My experience is both consistency and volume matter. I have needed longer and longer to recover from real intensity, but can pile on the volume pretty good.
“I’m not as good as I once was, but I’m as good once as I ever was…”
My threshold and hour power are not more than 5 watts different if I had to guess. Though as the power ratchets up the heat becomes an issue…