Thanks for your reply, I did look but it is not explicitly written those are the Coggan zones or defined as per the Coggan %s
@eduardo23
1.3 - 1.8 mmol/L. So not Coggan Zone 2. Overlap? Sure. I regularly (last 12-14 months) do this sort of training (although I use 2mmol/L ceiling), and it puts me at between border of Zone 2/3 and mid Zone 3.
Great question because many ppl read that old San Millan article and often think he is recommending just riding around in Coggan Zone 2.
It is not. Trouble with trying to “convert” it is that San Millan is most definitely not using a fixed percentage of FTP (or FTP at all), he’s using our old friend lactate.
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you didn’t read the article? Its right here:
Depending on the level of fitness of an individual, and up to 55-75% of VO2max intensity, ATP synthesis (energy) is generated from fat and carbohydrates
so yes, zone 2 in that article maps directly to Coggan zone 2.
Thank you for the clarification it is enlightening, so could we say it is actually slightly harder than Coggan Z2?
Thanks for pointing this out. I do not know what 55-75% of VO2max is when you translate to %s of FTP. Do you have a table for comparison?
its in the article. Not an exact mapping.
For many, I would think yes (with some overlap). My take is that San Millan recognizes the variability in intensity at AeT/FatMax/LT1 thingie, something that is not accounted for as precisely using Coggan zones (sub-threshold).
In a recent interview, Dirk Friel presses him on this very point. By the end you realize it’s not the Zone 2 that you’re thinking of, like “droids in Star Wars”.
To @bbarrera point, the whole range is wide, but where 1.3 - 1.8 falls is fairly narrow.
N=1 for amateur, when I do consecutive days of this, I can build up some decent muscular fatigue that I quickly bounce back from.
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I see, then is a good takeaway for me to actually ride slightly harder during endurance rides as long as you can recover and not compromise higher intensity work.
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Well, maybe, maybe not. We are on the Pro/Elite training thread, so I try to be careful with my takeaways and how they apply to me, average amateur.
But based on other interviews with him, it seems that’s what San Millan would have you do (mostly).
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but this does not mean zone 2 (necessarily). Rough guess, FTP ~ 80% VO2max. 75% VO2max somewhere upper tempo. This is not zone 2. And I don’t think he means it as zone 2 in the context.
@tshortt has mentioned the critical points. Training in range close to fatmax. Lab testing is part of his system, he uses fatmax and lactate as cues. It is clearly not “I saw this elite norwegian xc skier walking up a hill” pace.
I find this a very interesting trainig model, clear guidance with just a few words. No bla bla, straight to the point. If you want to improve an area you have to stress it. Hence, at fatmax/AeT/LT1.
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Lydiard’s “best aerobic pace”?
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My thoughts exactly after riding at this effort level for a couple of days (no lactate meter, just a guesstimate).
Good points. I have never measured lactate or done lab tests, so in this case it would be very helpful… Maybe i will do little “harder” base rides this winter, maybe it’s the key… maybe
Let’s please continue the discussion on San Millan’s training model here:
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Sorry, bit late to the party.
I’m assuming the 20min and 1 hour powers are measured at similar altitudes. The context for the numbers was below the graph in the original article, where it says 20min MMP was observed in stage 2 of the Tour of 2008 Tour of California and 60min MMP was during an ITT at the 2013 Tour de Suisse. There’s 5 years between those races.
Careful. An important discovery from studies was that depending on which definition of FTP was used, there were conflicting results. Some found no agreement between MLSS and FTP, while others found some agreement but wide limits of agreement in heterogeneous samples. One study went onto conclude FTP should not be used as a representation of MLSS. Discussed in Section D here : http://www.georgeron.com/2020/04/functional-threshold-power-FTP-myths-facts.html
Section D used FTP20 (.95% of 20minute power), which is pretty well known to be a bad protocol at this point.
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You can email the authors and discuss that. The study is peer reviewed.
I wanted to bring this part of the thread back up… It’s very rare to see training literature talk about this type of training progression. Rather, coaches and books (with the main exception being this triathlon book mentioned) talk about the classic 3 week overload with 1 week of recovery (on the bike still, typically 1/2 volume give or take). Friel mentions using a 2 week overload for the older athletes or those who have trouble recovering.
However, it seems pretty clear to me that pros aren’t taking this approach. From the pros that post to Strava at least, their volume appears to stay very consistent, and as has been mentioned in this thread, they don’t appear to take “recovery weeks” (by definition of 1 week lower volume after 3 weeks of building). Matt Dixon likes the approach to keep recovery inside your training weeks so you don’t need a week with reduced volume/intensity – stated above, keeping recovery as part of your weekly training rather than pushing your body harder during the 3 weeks.
I’d be interested to know if there is any more literature in cycling about how this is structured, or if anyone has any thoughts regarding recovery and progression/overload throughout training cycle. I’ve been working around this built in recovery method for most of 2020. I’d love to hear other’s thoughts and will share mine later
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Great point. How many of us who are uncoached or otherwise have wondered if we’re committing the same mistakes? I know I have. I would be curious to know what clicked for him and what he changed.
For us self-coached athletes and those who can only afford a TR subscription, what are we to do? Self-educate and experiment with this-or-that training methodology…or just follow whatever f’ing plan you’ve chosen? There are times where I feel as though I’m wasting my time experimenting with riding at very specific ranges trying to figure out when to time x-intensity, when to do FTP blocks, etc…but I also feel the same way when I’m following a TrainerRoad plan and I’m slung over my bars in December doing VO2 work when the start of the season is still 4 months away. Any plans for a SSBIII @Nate_Pearson
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