Insanity
Yeah…but how much of that was spent going downhill?? 
3 or 4 years ago, coming out of a twin baby break, I upped my training from ~8h/wk to >18h/wk. The gain wass massive after the first 9-12months, AG podium and top 5-10 overall was suddenly my new territory. However, after this initial gain progress stalled. It actually declined a little and most of this decline can be attributed to self-sabotage.
I just realized in the last 6-9 months that boundary conditions are different under a high-volume regime and what is ultimately relevant. I learned about this by this pro analysis - which touches only the surface of what I have done, but it is not possible to share this in the format here - and devouring all podcasts with folks like Joel Filliol, Dan Lorang, or Arild Tveiten. And ignoring what the guys on Fasttalk or what Seiler and his Twitter-bubble has to say.
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Curious what you mean by this?
I quite agree with your assessment though, and very grateful for all you post here from the pro training.
Realizing we live in an immediate gratification world, for example: “How much will my FTP go up if I do a 6 week block of XYZ…”? am wondering how good bike riders would react if after a good SST plan, when they plateau, if someone said: “You should take a step back from your 8 hour a week SST hammer plan, do 12-18 months of 15-18 hour a week programming, then a 4-6 month build”. Suspect very few would have the discipline to do that but I bet it would take many riders to the next level in their fitness journey. But it would be a hard sell.
What we are missing is the target number that represents an individuals potential. Without knowing what they could do, we are left chasing optimal programming without knowing what we are optimizing for. Retrospective views of what some athletes did is always suspect. Those athletes did what they did for a reason but we don’t know the reason(s), don’t know what portion of their potential was extracted, very small number of athletes studied, very small number of coaches giving fairly similar advice based on what is in vogue.
Add in trying to compare running to rowing to skiing to biking and all sorts of issues pop up.
For me… I made it to 4.2 w/kg and I know I left potential on the table with strength, core, diet and probably suboptimal programming. 4.2 doesn’t suck but I’m left to think if I’d done better maybe 5 w/kg was my max? Or maybe it was 4.4 and I did better than I think. Lets go with the latter - makes me feel better!!!
Question actually on topic – In your survey of pro data does anyone stick out as truly blazing their own path or are most within fairly well know guardrails?
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I work as data scientist, I build models of biological systems and so. Applied this work knowledge to up to 3 years of data of 42 pros on Strava. Built a classification model to categorize workouts and so. The output of this work is difficult to share and too time consuming. And why should I? And the limitations of the forum software is a factor as well. All those graphs I share here are actually interactive, but in this format it can’t be shared. And so on .
Yes, Valverde. He just does group rides with his buddies. Year round.
Apart from him, all follow the ride-a-lot-often-with-stuff. There is a tendency for GC riders to do heavy focus weeks.
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I tried this for a couple of seasons. Didn’t work.
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Probably helps if you live in a great area for cycling and your buddies are pro level or close to it!
I’ve actually got pretty fast doing mostly group rides. Find the right set of people who are good racers, and even if they don’t follow a structured training plan their training tends to hit all the zones in a good balance. E.g. A typical club might offer a Wednesday worlds hammerfest, a long Saturday ride with some hills or drop sections, and an easy coffee run on Sunday. That’s a pretty solid basis on which to build some cycling fitness. I think where the “just ride with your mates” goes wrong is if people have mate who never push themselves and every ride is just a coffee and cake run. Or the opposite where they try to smash each other to pieces every ride without building up that aerobic base. I know plenty of people in both camps!
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Makes me wonder how much of his longevity and success is due to some lack of structure. I personally have found that when I’m enjoying training, motivation is high and it’s easy to be consistent and get the work done.
After going through a TR plan in 2018 I switched to a semi structured self coached plan of 4-8wk blocks with minimal interval work but very little Z1 and not too much intensity but the odd zwift race and or Strava hunting day during the week with 4-6hr rides every weekend. I use TP to manage everything. Got in a solid 600hrs in my first year back after a 5yr hiatus, 400hrs indoors.
Was considering a coach this year, but an ex-pro friend pointed out that my training looks solid, I’m staying healthy and reminded me that training should be fun first and foremost. Point being, riding lots is a big part of it and for non-pros keeping motivation and enjoyment high matters, and as far as I’ve experienced it can work wonders. Looking at Valverde who’s almost my age in the pro tour seems it works for pros too.
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Velofacts posted this a few days ago of most training kms since Christmas, and it made me curious how different any of the pro women are doing their training (if at all). We always knew that AvV did a ton of training, but this puts it in perspective. I’m on speculating, but it looks like she can handle the volume, but that’s probably why she’s so much faster than everyone else. I’m am curious how the other ladies would stack up.
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Mitchelton-Scott (men & women) just did a big base training camp in Sicily and South Italy. Logged massive base miles, 8h rides and so. This is probably one of the reasons why AvV and Jack Haig are so far up in the ranking. I don’t know how representative the last 4 weeks are for the rest of the year.
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43h… that’s mental
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Wonder if age is a factor? As in, he still trains the same as when he was young? Seems to be working for him…
Also agree with @cartsman that the ‘just ride’ thing depends a lot on how you ride, where, and with whom. You might get your intervals in just because that is your style.
The other question I wanted to ask @sryke, slightly related to this is, how much can you make up with off-the-bike training, eg gym? Downhill riders seem to do a lot of their strength and fitness in the gym, and mainly ride for skills. Maybe something similar works for some road or track riders? Ride for aerobic fitnesss, strength from the gym? You likely wouldn’t see that on strava. I keep thinking about the German track squad you mentioned a while ago.
That team rode 30,000+kms that year.
It was also the 4,000m team (think Wiggins) so not a lot of extra gym work.
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Sryke, those guys for triathlon or cycling specific training? Thx.
Neither of the pros tracks their gym work on Strava. The only indications are descriptions like “post gym spin” and so but only in the off season. And this is really rare.
I must admit I have never really developed any interest in strength/gym work. Therefore, I do not really look into this.
I don’t understand your question.
My apologies. The podcast names you mentioned. Googled two of them and they were triathlon specific coaches I though? Thanks.
Joel Filliol and Arild Tveiten are both triathlon coaches, whereas Dan Lorang coaches Jan Frodeno/Anne Haug (both 2019 Kona winners) and Bora-Hansgrohe pro cycling team.
Their ideas/philosophies match very well with what I can see in this Strava-analysis: a “high volume - if you need a full rest day you’re probably training to hard”. An approach which does not really align with the twitter-hyped mantra of easy-days-easy and hard-days-hard. They all caution the use of hard-days under a high-volume regime.
The art of these coaches is to figure out for each athlete how much load they can a) tolerate and b) need to progress. It appears that above threshold intensity is used sparingly - Lorang and the Norwegians on opposite sides of the spektrum. Quote Kristian Blummenfelt: "we don’t train polarised. We do high volume with quite a lot up to threshold. Whereas Lorang may have a more polarised phase early in the cycle with high-volume and some vo2max work. Looks a little like a reverse-periodisation.
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very cool. thanks man. I’ll check them out. I’m foundering with the SSBHV plan. I’m getting it done the workouts aren’t killing me…but I’m not a huge believer in a single stimulus over and over again…rest…repeat. I know it can work. And does for most people, I’m just bored as hell and I want to dive into my other energy systems while I am working on ‘base’ even via SS.
anyway, thanks again, i’ll check them out.