@Nate_Pearson and crew. Just got into adaptive training. The new career page looks so great. I can’t wait to get deeper into it.
Try filtering VO2 with ‘traditional’, for that time and Progression. Turns out 60 workouts, or about 25 in the range you’re looking for
1 Like
If you had a coach, I’d expect them to push you. And put the thought in your head that you’re capable of more than you have done. The ramp result demonstrates that you are capable of 5% more than your 1hr TT has proven. Why not entertain the possibility that you can do 225? What have you go to lose, other than a 100% completion rate on workouts?
2 Likes
The potential is there👍
I suppose in most cases a ramp test also produces an FTP prediction, so i cannot see why training zones (FTP) cannot be derived from a power curve. So yes, fingers crossed!!!
1 Like
Liking the look of the new plans, and did my first new workout this morning and it was much manageable. However, the update seems to have broken the connection between my Hammer 1 and the app. Slow, or not adjusting power at all, at changes in power. (Yes have raised a ticket, and have gone back after uninstalling and reinstalling the app as instructed. Only thing that has changed in my set up is App update).
That’s not at all how I would characterize what they said. I would sum it up as TSS and IF are not the BEST or only parameters to guide your training. They have developed workout levels as an improvement over TSS and IF, because WL considers the duration, frequency and length of intervals and how they are arranged in the workout while the other metrics do not (only the total time at each power).
That doesn’t mean TSS, IF and FTP are useless, especially for judging your efforts outside or in a long ride/race. It just means there’s other things to consider about what makes something hard. That’s not surprising because TSS and IF weren’t meant to be used for shorter efforts, but mainly for recognizing daily, weekly, periodized workload.
2 Likes
Ok I should caveat that by saying “when choosing (or comparing) workouts”. Nate regards TSS a useful broad brush metric for tracking training volume over time but that’s it, none of them regard it as accurate enough to represent fitness or to describe a workout.
For the relevant question Ivy asks how workout levels should be used in conjunction with TSS and IF and Nate responds by saying ‘you shoudn’t’.
Knowing FTP is still fundamental to the product so I would take that as a different thing although they are definitely looking for more nuance than what your latest ramp test score was. I’ve got nothing against TSS or IF personally (I use one but not the other). If anyone wants to take a look its It’s at 30:14 in episode 308.
With the introduction of Workout levels, now I see why I struggled Spencer +2 back then. It was 2.4 level difference between mills and spencer +2 
Those and other similar threads might have some clue now.
I’ll take those updated plans. Kudos for TR teams.
20 Likes
They haven’t hired a coach in years, but they always need new software engineers. Their model is using data and ML to pick workouts based on performance metrics and data inputs. They are attempting to create software that gives you the right workout every time.
Coaching requires a bit more than just workout selection and writing a training plan.
This is a software company with a goal of making cyclists faster, and they do a good job of it.
8 Likes
Counter point, if their training plans sucked, I and many others would not use it, no matter how great the user experience is. If their app sucked, but the training plans are great, I and many others still would use it. Coaching doesn’t have to mean human coaching. AI, or ML coaching I still say is coaching. The coaching aspect I’m referring to is generating a training plan that works.
3 Likes
Off-the-shelf training plans are not coaching. Personally I got faster following the fundamentals, then saw a drop in performance trying to follow TR’s off-the-shelf plans, and then used another off-the-shelf plan from a coaching company and immediately got faster. Then I doubled down and hired a coach from that company, and am almost back to where I was before TR. My plans look nothing like TR plans.
Off-the-shelf plans are not created equal.
2 Likes
Sure, you may not, but this is exactly what a lot of us do as we basically feel the training plans “suck” for want of a better word, while still liking the company and the product immensely.
Training plans are not coaching though which is the main point.
2 Likes
Exactly, off-the-shelf training plans are not coaching. Coaching is the art of molding a plan to the needs of an athlete. And in the context of AT one thing to understand is that it currently relies on off-the-shelf progressions and then optimizing the specific workout as part of the overall progression. So if you respond well to a specific TR base or build template, life is good. For whatever reason I didn’t appear to respond well to the TR templates (except for the ‘not recommended’ Traditional Base).
In the podcasts Coach Chad gives a lot of great information, in my opinion, however I found trying to apply that information to restructure the plans to be a major challenge. While experimenting with different training approaches I appear to have uncovered some fundamentals that my coach then used to orchestrate a different overall plan. While my coach does some workout level adjustments - things like “hey coach I had to finish a work project and couldn’t do this workout” or after he reviews a benchmark workout - the real value of a coach has been adjusting the plan at a macro level.
2 Likes
I am wondering what they mean by Level 10 means time to re-test. I think it is more about where to put one’s focus. I’ve been at level 10 on Sweet Spot, but never on VO2 workouts. Had I had these numbers, I would realize it was time to dedicate effort to raising the roof. That is, my TTE was probably great, but ramp tests still beat me down.
After my next ramp test, I will do manual AT. I’ll do each workout, and, based on how hard it is/feels, I will increment more, less, or the same, than the plan tells me to. Then, based on how that workout goes, I will adjust again. Workout Levels seem really useful.
3 Likes
[quote=“jakeriddel, post:581, topic:58463”] look
Counter point, if their training plans sucked, I and many others would not use it, no matter how great the user experience is.
[/quote]
Their old off the shelf plans aren’t great in the opinions of a lot of people, too (I did SSB, every Build and three speciality plans over two years when I didn’t have time to develop my own). I’m interested to see how AT interacts with the new plans. But that’s not “coaching”. There is no live coaching option… it’s a computer run by software.
Nothing wrong with that, but a coach who writes training plans and sells them (even on an app) isn’t really “coaching”. Love a lot of Chad’s work, but even he admitted many times on the podcast that he wasn’t actively coaching.
Well, also factor in cost. Can’t even have a phone call with a coach once a month for that price. Also, with plan builder its a little more than just a cookie cutter plan. It plans out a whole season, tappers, ect… I count it as a legit budget coaching option. Also considering a lot of people, like me, aren’t going to drop a fortune on a coach for a hobby. And for 99+% of the users that’s exactly what it is, a hobby. I’m grandfathered in at $99 a year, but even at the current price, find me better “coaching” for that price.
Edit: and yes, I can perhaps see the irony when I have about 10k worth of bikes and would still rather skimp on coaching, but what can I say, I still want more bikes, spending $$$ on coaching gets in the way of that.
3 Likes
I have and will always say that TR (esp at the old pricing) is the best value in cycling training. But some want better performance than TR alone will give.
Lots of coaches give some free advice. Just have to know where to find them! 
I did better following the fundamentals from a couple of books and doing club rides. $40 one time purchase plus $15/year for the club. 
My coach is adding value and rounding out my education.
I think you’re a vocal outlier. I’ve made great progress on their plans… and I think the new plans look even better. And I’ve read Friel’s book, and listened to all the podcasts, and read 1000 posts on reddit. I think I could design myself a plan and make progress. But i doubt I would even make as much progress as I have on the legacy plans. And I think the new plans look even better. And then add in AT, and even better.
13 Likes