That’s interesting - I thought that article referenced Dura Ace Di2?
My point was more like mechanical Dura Ace (weight 2007, ‘street’ cost about £1300-1500) vs Ultegra Di2 (weight 2452, similar money in the real world).
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Ahh, I totally thought you were comparing Dura Ace Di2 vs Dura Ace mech, not Ultegra Di2 vs Dura Ace mech.
Yeah, in that case mech might be better for you. I just enjoy Di2 too much that I’d rather have Ultegra Di2 than Dura Ace mech
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You and I have different definitions of “nightmare”… Not sure what is so scary about a battery in the seatpost, but I don’t like clowns and I’m not judging 
Anyways, I have experience building/owning bikes with both and they both have advantages. Yes, the build on SRAM is faster and cleaner. Once installed, I actually prefer one charge for the entire bike with di2 vs. messing with 2-4 batteries in different components for SRAM. I’ve got a lot of teammates/friends that run electronic and I’ve seen more issues with SRAM vs. Di2 despite Di2 being more common and it’s been around longer. Both are much more reliable than mechanical in my opinion, but I’ve seen issues with both. One really nice feature with SRAM is the ability to mix/match the new AXS stuff. I can swap my eagle RD and cassette from my MTB onto my road bike in under 10 minutes and simply pair it to the road shifters when I need really wide gearing. I don’t think Shimano made their road and MTB di2 stuff compatible.
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You can run a XT[R] Di2 mech and Road Shifters, not as easily due to said wires but it’s still possible.
Thanks, I didn’t realize. I guess I was thinking 12 speed mtb vs. 11 speed road, but that’s kind of dumb since the shifters shouldn’t have to know or care how many gears they are dealing with. I already had the investment of AXS on my mtb, so I went SRAM on the gravel bike so I’d have the ability to swap. I’d definitely consider going Shimano if I were starting over today, the wires don’t bother me that much as long as the frame is designed around di2.
I have Ultegra Di2 on my loaner bike, and I get where @thesupermarket is coming from. For Shimano, wireless seems to be purely optional whereas for SRAM almost everything is wireless. Given that every other computing device has made the transition to wireless >10 years ago, not including Bluetooth and wireless functionality out of the box seems insulting and backwards.
My loaner bike, a 3T Strada Due, is top notch, except for the Shimano Ultegra Di2 groupset. For example, I wanted to test the advantages of an electronic groupset and pair it to my Wahoo. Eeeh. I need an extra doohickey for that. Pair it to my phone? Nope, charging cable or extra junction box required. The shifting isn’t as great as I thought it’d be either. The buttons feel relatively cheap and even though the shift logic is exactly the same as with my Ultegra mechanical groupset even after over a week, I misshift every now and then. The buttons feel kinda cheap, too, but Ultegra Di2 should feel more premium IMHO. And they still have a large amount of dead lever throw before you actually actuate a shift. I’d like to re-program the buttons … but I’d need said dongle. I’d also like to try auto front shifts and compensation shifts.
The hood shape is a massive improvement over the previous-gen 105 hydraulic shifters I have. I spend a lot of time in the aero hoods position and prefer a taller, thinner hump to the thick, chunky one I have now. But SRAM’s hoods feel much better in my hands, be it the thin horns of SRAM Force 1 mechanical or the shorter, stubbier ones of the new eTap variety.
The shifting itself is alright, but not as great as it could be. Shifting front chain rings is much better in some ways, but it always takes an extra second for the front derailleur to adjust to the chain line. So seemingly a second or two after I have shifted, I’d hear a (cheap-sounding) whirring motion and the chain rub would disappear. This will sound quite bad, and I am sure I could reprogram some of the buttons to my liking and so forth. But given the price tag, my expectations were high and I feel underwhelmed.
I feel quite good about going SRAM Force eTap for my next bike. The shifters and hoods feel much better. The only thing I’m jealous of are the two buttons at the top of the hoods that Shimano Di2 levers have. It’d be nice to flip through my pages or zoom in and out on my head unit.
- Double press the junction button, and you can swap between the 3 default modes (assuming its like my GRX Di2).
- Solid lights are full manual, Single flash is semi-syncro aka compensation shifts for front shift, and 2 flashes is full syncro.
- all that is from memory, so I might be a bit off, but you can swap on the fly to try those without the wireless setup.
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That’s good to know, thanks!
This way I can try at least some of the functionality.
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Got to say, when SRAM first announced they were going wireless I wasn’t convinced. Yes, we use wireless for everything else, but be honest - it’s often a bit flaky. I’m frequently having to turn things off and on again, or re-pair them. I could absolutely understand why Shimano preferred to stick with tried and trusted wired connections for something that needs to be as reliable as shifting. Plus SRAM system has 4 batteries to worry about replacing/charging vs one. Seemed likely the Shimano solution would be more robust and simple.
Everybody I know who has eTap is happy though so I guess SRAM pulled it off! Assume Shimano must have tried to develop their own wireless system, maybe they hit issues?
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All wireless systems have issues, and they could be from things like interference. Wired devices tend to be more reliable, but on the other hand, more and more devices become wireless. SRAM has a head start here, and has had more time to iron out the kinks.
Inexcusable this day and age is that you need a wireless communication module, though. This should be built into the junction box, period.
The battery thing is a wash or an advantage for SRAM: you can take a spare battery with you or use your FD battery on your rear derailleur. With Shimano rely on one battery that is usually hard to get to. A team mate of mine almost couldn’t race, because even though he charged his Di2 battery the night before, for some reason it drained over night and he had to scramble to find someone with a charging cable. To be honest, this isn’t a critical point for me, though, and I could make do with either battery solution.
Shimano seems to have become complacent. They are the only groupset manufacturer that still only offers 11-speed drivetrains on the road. Even on the MTB-side if you want 12 speeds, you need to go mechanical. Rotor went 13-speed two years ago. Campag has 12- and 13-speed groupsets on the market. SRAM has very flexible 12-speed groupsets on the market. Although to be honest, I’d be happy with 12-speed mechanical.
I’m not sure we’re comparing apples to apples here. I don’t think you can look at a drivetrain on a bike and compare it to the world of consumer electronics. Why are there still wires running from a central computer and battery on your car to the transmission and engine? it’s not because the car manufacturers couldn’t make it wireless, it just makes for a better and more reliable system. I’m not saying the automobile is a perfect analogy either, but there are lots of applications where hard-wiring makes more sense. Drivetrain on a bike is certainly up for debate, but I don’t think anyone can deny there are advantages to each approach.
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Judging by how current Di2 works, I’d assume that once(if) Shimano comes out with a Di2 12 Speed MTB group set you should be able to use 11 speed road shifters.
You can mix/match shifters & derailleurs. You just can’t mix a 10 speed & 11 speed derailleur. Has to be one or the other.
That’s my biggest annoyance with Di2. Is that click, click, click, whirr when I change front ring.
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I’m really clueless, I thought Shimano already had an electronic 12speed MTB group, I guess that’s only mechanical?
In my lab I use a wired network connection for my computers, too, because it is faster and more reliable. But it seems possible to have a reliable wireless drivetrain on your bike. Unlike ABS and ESP units taking sensor inputs from all over your car and having to make decisions in split seconds, not being able to shift for a second is not safety critical. Other manufacturers have also brought wireless groupsets to the market, so it seems feasible.
And that doesn’t excuse of including wireless connectivity by default either, which seems to be an afterthought. (Modern cars also have bluetooth and some have wireless connectivity.)
I don’t think I was denying the advantages of cabling. Like I wrote, I could get used to either and in practice I don’t care that it is easier to set up a SRAM eTap groupset — I, or rather, people in the bike shop, will have to do this once. My big gripe is the lack wireless connectivity — I was really looking forward to trying out all the benefits of a wireless groupset and I couldn’t.
Edit: Just to be clear, I’m not saying Shimano Di2 is a bad product. I’m just saying at least within the short window of time, it didn’t blow me away or reach my admittedly very high expectations. It’s a premium product that fetches a premium price, and should be judged accordingly and very harshly.
I’m quite sure that one of Shimano’s biggest assets is simply reliability. I have an 8-year-old XT groupset on my mountain bike, which still works great. Yes, it is getting a bit tired, but I really can’t complain given the use it has seen.
That’s only mechanical, XT and XTR Di2 is still stuck on 11 speeds.
The nightmare is time and margin for error. With Sram you’re bolting on a front and rear mech. 2 minute install. Zero wires. Your putting on new hoods. That’s the only work you’re doing. Leave your bike as is. Fully assembled. You’re done in minutes. It’s so so easy. No margin for error. It’s great too that you can plop it on an older frame that has no internal routing.
With Di2 you’re replacing hoods buuut, probably pulling bars, pulling stem, feeding wires, pulling seatpost, running wires up seatpost, Probably pulling the fork, probably pulling cranks and bottom bracket, feeding cables to pull the di2 wires through, making a little loop of slack inside the bartape then eventually bolting on the mechs. All those little junctions… are the wires running smooth? And if something is incorrect… maybe a bad connection between wires… if the cables rattle inside the down tube, it’s mental compared to sram.
And if you want to swap it to another bike… if you want to put it on an older frame… you’ll be banging your head against a wall or paying a shop probably over $100 to install and it’s not going to be done anytime soon.
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You are of course still running brake cables/hoses, which still complicates matters. If you are running 1 cable, you might as well run 2. Now, if you were to introduce a wireless braking system (not that I am advocating that), then the simplicity of going totally wireless would be compelling. But until then …
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Almost pulled the trigger a couple months ago on a di2 upgrade for my ultegra 8000 bike. In the end I decided I’d wait another couple years and get a new bike with it fitted as the £££ just didn’t make sense for me.
My ultegra shifts OK but a lot of the time it is just noisy as hell. I can spend an hour adjusting everything until its seemingly perfect, then a couple hundred miles later it sounds like a family of crickets are having a party with every spin of the cranks and boy oh boy does it ruin a ride!
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That’s a bit strange. My winter hack/occasional commuter/spare bike has 105 and that’s always been pretty reliable, despite having little maintenance for a couple of years. But then it’s not seen many miles either, tbf.