If I reading things correctly, part of this issue is linked with fear. You’re scared of one or even multiple things. If that’s the case, almost nothing we say or you experience during a crit will help. As has been mentioned on the podcast numerous times, fear really restricts our ability to learn and make good decisions. This whole thing needs unpicking.
Carrying speed into a corner can be scary. Even when you’re confident of your own ability it can be scary. You will never 100 percent know what rider A, B or C is going to do and suddenly you’ve got someone undercutting you and there’s someone else coming over the top. It’s a lot to mentally process whilst keeping you the other riders safe.
If you have the opportunity, try and find a local fast bunch or pace line ride. Explain to the other riders what you’re hoping to achieve. If they know your cornering is an issue, there will be no nasty surprises for them.
Your natural instinct is to follow the rider in front. You’re eyes and head position will reinforce this. If the riders around you are seasoned racers, chances are, their lines are better than yours. You’ll see how they set up for a corner. How they transition through the corner and how they exit.
Practicing on your own will enable you to find your comfortable cornering positions whilst on the bike. What it won’t do is ready you for having someone on your wheel. Being aware of other riders around you during a race is critical. I’d say it’s most important as you pick your line. Remember that the ‘perfect’ line won’t always be an option either. Maybe you’ve positioned poorly in the pack? You have to adapt and move on to the next corner.
I hope you can find enjoyment in crit racing. For me, it’s the purest for of road racing.
These are the two issues I see. Back when I raced crits, I was doing 2 a week, not two a year.
Second, you have to master riding in the top 10-15 the whole race. It’s the easiest place to ride and it takes skill mastering the constant battle of positioning especially if there are 80+ other riders. Positioning is actually not a battle. Eventually you master the flow of the group.
I know what you’re getting at, and…I agree to a certain extent. I’d frame it though as both are issues though. I’m not really comfortable leaning hard into corners when solo…ie not even in a race.
The positioning I can work on…I’m not overly shy about jumping through holes or popping out and taking a wheel.
First - the cornering drills seem focused on technique and practice, but not speed. Since you’ve repeatedly said you are increasingly less comfortable in turns as the speed goes up it might be easiest to find a curvy downhill to session and work on improving your time. Could combine this with an interval workout (power on the way up, technique on the way down) if you wanted - but might be better served making it purely skills based. You have to get comfortable cornering at speed and one of the simplest ways to get speed is a descent
Second - I have the very strong impression that you aren’t at all comfortable in a pack. Group rides rarely simulate race pack conditions in that people aren’t actively fighting for position, they are much more likely to give you a wheel. You need to get your reps in on this. Many areas have a weeknight training race that is usually slightly lower stakes/competitiveness than sanctioned races. Do these. Race more. Give yourself a process goal of staying in the pack the entire race (no tail-gunning, no off the front fliers), then of being in the top half the entire race, etc. Practice for this requires others, so you have to go where they are, and this is probably not your local group ride.
One benefit of these goals is you should be much more focused on them than cornering - and since your problem seems mostly mental the distraction may serve to give you something else to focus on, minimizing the cornering concerns
A couple issues though…#1…I’m in Chicago. There are no descents within 50 miles lol.
#2…I’m pretty comfortable in a pack. I ride group rides multiple times a week…and show up at the fastest one that honestly is noticeably faster, AND more dangerous/sketchy than any cat 4 crit I’ve been in.
Parking ramps on the weekend…it can be done! Haha.
Srsly tho based on what’s been said here it sounds like your idea of hockey pants and elbow pads is probably the right choice. Let us know how it goes!
Mm no havent done Judson…leaves from Evanston, just a tad far from me. The wednsday night Lincoln/California ride. I’ve heard Jusdson is not faster…but, alas, no first hand knowledge.
I don’t think speed and danger are the things you’re struggling with in a pack, but I might be misinterpreting your comments. I think you’re struggling to maintain a position within a pack where people are actively trying to move up. In my experience nearly all competitive, fast group rides, are still friendlier and less actively competitive within the pack for the vast majority of the time. They might battle you for a wheel in the last five minutes, but generally they are going to let you move in, move up, etc. a lot easier than even the slowest race
I’m up in the northern ‘burbs, so have not done either….but your description sounded like Judson.
If you are ever up north, feel free to join the GTE rides….leave from Deerfield Starbucks on Tues / Thurs / Sat. Smooth , fast rotating paceline with some sprints tossed in to make things spicy.
Thanks, I might at some point, there’s some nice routes out that way. I rode with Colavita for a year out of Deerfield during Covid…also once a month all the fast guys from the city meet out in Barrington for the ‘Bandana Ride.’ Winner gets to keep a nasty old bandana for a month lol.
My clubs normal route is from the city up to Fort Sheridan and back.
Hey thanks again for the input on this. Quick little update. Weather starting to get slightly better, and got outside for a sweetspot workout. Just did laps around a practice crit route in my area. Solo at under threshold…there are no corners that are remotely challenging, but I did make a point to enter on some bad lines, ie enter middle of the road, exit on inside curb, the sort of thing, to make the corners somewhat challenging.
I will say…this very well may all come down to just focusing on the right objects in races for me. In cross…I’m religious about focusing on the stake at the apex, then when I know my line is good into the apex, I look 30’ out or so to my exit stake on the outside tape line.
I tried really being relgious about doing this on the practice crit course solo, focusing on the inside curb, and then looking down road once I thought I’d initiated the right amount of turn towards the apex. The the difference was quite noticeable.
I think I just need to be very focused on this during races. I sure I’m spending most of my time there looking at the curb I dont want to crash into, the 3 riders who I dont want to take my front wheel out, rather than my cornering reference points.
It’s astounding how big a difference this mentality is for me across the 2 disciplines…I dont even notice the 80 other racers bunched up in cross going into the first corner…I’m just trying to get on a good line.
I agree with you, I do outside foot and inside hand.
The rest of the body is something I usually don’t think about. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t doing anything.
The biggest thing is to look where you want to go, which is usually the exit of the corner. As you lean in, spot the apex, then as you approach it move your vision to the exit.
Some people say that a cue that helps them is to point their belly button toward the exit of the turn. This can swivel the hips and help to point the bike. I don’t think this helps me, but I’ve heard of it helping others.
Also, you mention braking in the corner. Don’t do that. It will make your bike feel way way worse through the corner and will want to stand you up. This could be why things start to feel terrible above 20mph. You sorta just need to trust your tires and technique. Unless you hit gravel or have seriously terrible body position you should be able to take and 90deg crit corner at 25mph and be well within the limits of tire grip and lean angle.
EDIT: I wrote this before even seeing your most recent update. Sounds like you’ve identified a big contributor to your uneasiness! It’s like drafting in a paceline. If you stare at the tire in front of you it will always feel like you’re about to hit it. But if you look at the rider’s shoulders and further up the group you can ride that wheel for miles without problem.
For me the big breakthrough in cornering comfort/confidence came from a summer of “competitive” week night group rides with much more experienced racers. Entering a sharp corner in third or fourth wheel behind a few cat 1s pretty quickly taught me to sink or swim, and in most group rides it’s more likely to be single file, which makes it easier to focus on technique than in a crit where you’re bumping shoulders at 35 mph. The consequences of getting dropped are a lot lower too, so I would intentionally blow myself up to get near the front just to follow the fast guys on their line for as long as I could. I recognize that not everyone has access to a good group ride or practice race, but there’s really nothing better than experience for confidence in a pack.
I agree that you need to be accepting that crashes can happen, it’s an important part of the mindset. But I don’t think it’s right to imply they are inevitable (if that is what you meant)
I’ve raced more than 200 crits. I’ve had to take evasive action at times, but I’ve only crashed in one crit and that was a front wheel blowout which I managed to get to the grass before landing on mud. Dirty but unscathed.
I think you need to accept there’s risk, but you can be in control of quite a lot of it.
Thanks. Yea we’ve got an early summer practice series here that I will probably show up at with the express purpose of forcing myself to practice good cornering technique.
Thinking about going to our versions of cross the first time this year my problem is that here there are no categories. So I will have to race with super fit amateurs and semi pros while having a sub 4 w/kg ftp. I’m questioning if it’s even worth it.