I’m not defending anything, I bought 353s with my eyes open while this was going on. There was no alternative that fit the brief for the money
If you dug deep into the “article” you understood that it was more a criticism about the process/standard/people making those decisions than the hookless thing.
The standard is poor, and it’s done for people without the knowledge with think they should have. The majority of the brands are doing tests way beyond the standard is proof of that.
With that being said, I think Zipp is in a complicated spot. They insist that 25 IR and 28mm is fine. But they started to recommend pro riders to use 30mm. The cases that happened were the majority of Zipp - if I’m not mistaken. So I think they are making a bit of a mess to themselves.
Just for fun, but ENVE is also hookless on the pro tour peloton, aren’t they? How many times did we see blow-outs of their wheels? And they have the “responsibility” on top of their shoulders with Pogacar. All lenses in the world. Imagine Poga having a blow-out and breaking a collarbone.
TLDR: Hookless is fine, Zipp has the hot potato.
We can also say it’s a tire issue. Those cases happened with Vittoria+Zipp. Iirc Movistar’s (continental+Zipp)cases were due to continue riding with a flat. I don’t think we should count those.
The problem is that tire manufacturers are in charge of compatibility. So wheel manufacturers can deflect the blame. At the same time, it’s a change introduced by the latter and wheel brands include a list of compatible tires. It’s a shitty move by Zipp to have that list in their website and at the same time claim all the responsibility falls on tire manufacturers.
This is part of the problem, consumers have to trust the brands. Sure, it’s the same with hooked wheels/tires but the hooks provide an additional safeguard.
I don’t think we should take Josh Poertner’s comments without the context because he wasn’t making the point that hookless is bad but that safety is an issue that limits the performance development and the problems with the standards.
It’s also worth mentioning that Zipp introduced their first hookless models back in 2020(?) and teams as well as regular riders have been using them for years already. It’s hard to know if f there have been many documented cases tho.
Says one of the most prominent people dismissing concerns….
Just as an aside, a person can disagree with your take on an issue while also not dismissing it. Both these things can be true.
Might be helpful to keep that in mind instead of eye rolling.
What tire width and pressure are they running?
Simply saying “well they are running tubeless seemingly w/o issue so it must be OK” on,y indicates a lack of understanding re: the potential issue is.
That is a curiosity with this issue and something that had come to mind. One would think that since enve and cadex and now hunt with their sub50(not sure if this wheel is in the pro peloton) all have hookless options for road that they would raise their hands in Zipp’s defense. Instead they have remained decidedly quiet and have let zipp take all the heat. I would think since they have proverbial skin the game they would want to join in on allaying any concerns or misgivings people might have gained as a result of what they saw happen to lotto destiny.
I think the logical conclusion is that the other companies view competition from other hookless companies as a greater threat to profit than customer apprehension towards hookless.
Or they’re just taking the stance that there’s nothing to be gained by stirring the pot more on the conversation.
I agree with @Abe_Froman. From the Zipp guy’s interview, I didn’t feel these companies were best friends.
Enve did.
They commented on the De Gendt issue, or at least in context of it, stating that any rim hooked or hookless would have shed its tyre in that situation.
Given all this discussion, I wanted to share this tire guide for Giant/CADEX Hookless wheels. It turns out many popular tires did not pass Giant’s safety tests on their wheels: Giant Hookless Technology | Giant Bicycles Official site
I discovered the tire I just put on my Giant hookless wheel didn’t pass their testing – good thing I found this webpage and checked before I went out for a ride.
There’s also a tire pressure guide but it’s probably specific to Giant/CADEX wheels: Tire Pressure | Giant Bicycles Official site
More from Enve
That seems like a really well-written piece on ENVE’s part. Takes on several of the key criticisms head-on and provides good responses.
I’m “hookless-tolerant” rather than strongly pro or anti, so I haven’t dug into the science of it as much as some… but what I see does not alarm me, and I’m comfortable using hookless in my circumstances.
Would love to see some responses/comments from people who have strongly anti-hookless views, though.
Dunno that I would classify myself as “strongly anti-hookless”, but I am certainly wary of it for the road, especially for combinations outside ETRTO specs.
The ENVE article doesn’t allay those concerns for me. If I were to buy new wheels right now, I would almost certainly buy a hooked rim. A year or two down the road, who knows?
Thanks for the link. As a consumer in the market for a new wheelset they haven’t sold me the benefits of a hookless rim. Less rolling resistance, more aero… claims that will be hard to prove or disprove. I remain skeptical.
Well, to be fair, they also said a stronger rim, wider lip so less likelihood of pinch flats, more precise tolerances and better fabrication. I see those as non-trivial advantages if proven.
Those paper marketing advantages have no appeal to me, as a longtime hooked tubeless (ENVE hooked and Roval). And I’m a big 90-94kg curb jumping guy that plows over potholes and broken pavement with abandon. Never had a pinch flat and I’ve been running road tubeless for 7 years. Hookless road? I’ll wait until BOTH road TIRES and RIMS are in sync.
One thing I will give to Zipp and Enve, having mounted tires on 5 sets of their rims, is that they have always felt very consistent as far as the force needed to mount a tire and the difficulty of seating is. Pretty tight, but not impossibly tight. I have generally found them pleasant to work with.
Variability is down to tires. I’ve had 4 or 5 Enve SES 5.6 disc HOOKED tubeless made in late 2016 (because of replacements), then Bontrager and the Roval. At least 10 different rims. Tires go on the same, except for my front Roval Rapide CLX II because they made that at top end of diameter spec. And that’s exactly what I want to be safe. Because the tires are the big variable.
Yes. That’s one of the issues. A lot of attention on wheel manufacturers but for me tires are the biggest liability. It’s a problem because the change introduced by wheel manufacturers but safety and compatibility mostly lies on the tires.
Over the years I’ve bought a few tires that were defective. In one the bead started separating from the sidewall. In another the was warped. Both with hooked wheels. The danger of a defective tire with hookless could be catastrophic. That’s why I wonder about QC and variability in tires