Hookless or not?

for the win…

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Yeesh, forget it.

If it wasnt for the hooks that setup whould not be safe. The tyre would have an unacceptably high chance of blowing off the rim at the pressures you would want to run at.

One thing I havent seen talked about, car wheels are a foot or more in inner width, are hookless, have tires wildly outside the suggested ratios, experience dramatically greater loads in every directkon, and yet have no risk of blowoff. And they’ve been this way for decades and decades.

I get it’s apples and oranges. But I think it also shows lack of hooks arent exactly the limiter here.

Troll 'em if you got 'em

I’m sorry - no more food from me :grin:

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Giant seems to make a good hookless rim

Car tire’s and wheels are insanely different than bike tire/wheels and have extremely different use cases. If you want to see a tire that will blow-off or spin off a rim look at a traditional rim without bead lock or set screw’s (image below has the mentioned lock/screws) Spinning a traditional drag slick.

image

A drag slick is closer to the characteristics and requirements of a bike tire than a standard on-road DOT radial. A radial has stiff side walls and does not have a tire roll affect for traction - cars use suspension for traction, bikes are using tire flex.

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What about train wheels?

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Let me rephrase this. I’m not even trying to say I’m right. I’m probably not.

But, what difference between car wheels and bike wheels necessitates the requirement for hooks on one, but not the other? And I’m certainly willing to accept that there IS a difference that necessitates hooks in bike wheels. But IMO the above question needs to be answered…or all this is just going off faith, or lack thereof (on both sides).

Hooked vs. Hookless Rims - FLO Cycling.

Car and motorcycle tires can stand on their own. However, a bicycle tire does not contain the same structure and will collapse on itself. The thinner casings of a bicycle tire allowed the tire to stretch under pressure. While this saved weight, it led to tire blow offs at high pressures. To prevent blow-offs, hooks were added to the rims to hold the tire in place.

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Hey tank tracks are hookless. “What difference between [tank tracks] and bike wheels necessitates the requirement for hooks?”

I look forward to finding out what you find out about car wheels.

Go to 13:50

One is that car tyres are non folding and have a bead that’s normally made from high tensile steel cable. Works fine for cars where the tyre is heavy duty enough that punctures are very rare, you can carry a spare wheel, and almost everybody relies on their local garage for servicing anyway so going to the garage when you need new tyres is no big deal.

It’s no problem building a bicycle tyre with a steel bead that won’t come off a hookless rim. The problems are that building that tyre to be heavy duty enough to make it practically puncture proof will come with a big weight, rolling resistance and comfort penalty. And/or cyclists will have to call their LBS every time they need to change tyres or get a flat that doesn’t seal.

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I cut up a couple of car tires so I could dispose of them. To get them off the rim, I first I had to use an angle grinder to cut through the incredibly tough steel cables running around the bead. I had to do this on several places. After that I could remove the tires from the rims. Then I went about cutting the tire up into sections for disposal. I’m a big guy. And I used a big, sharp ax. Cutting through them was incredibly difficult and took a long time. I had no idea how tough and reinforced car tires are. I resigned to never do this again.

I’ve cut up GP5000s to see the cross section. Here’s what it took: a razor blade and 2 seconds. See the difference?

I answered this already - a DOT radial has stiff sidewalls and steel rings/beads and are vertical load barring. A radial (car tire) is designed to “not flex” and are stiff/strong and will not come off the shelf or over the wall. Bike tires are not designed this way, they are soft, not structured and designed to flex for traction.

Now these should have hooks to hold them to the tracks.

I think i’m on to something!

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I read the Flo article. That was helpful. I’ll watch that video a bit later. But it did also mention that tires have come a long way, and some tires DO have beads that will not stretch (which strikes me as the biggest issue to overcome).

But yet, here you are, trying to draw a comparison. :man_shrugging:t2: And then you wonder why people ask if you are just trolling.

There is ZERO comparison between car tires / rims and bicycle tires. NONE. Car tires are installed with machines, don’t have foldable beads, rely on raw HP vs. human-generated watts, don’t have consumers worried about minor weight differences, etc.

Any attempt to bring them into the discussion only underlines a basic lack of understanding of the issues, despite numerous attempts to explain it.

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