I have been experiencing exactly the same issues since trying to take my training outdoors onto rolling terrain.
I feel that my lack of skill/knowledge in choosing the right gearing and cadence to suit both the target wattage and terrain is a massive limiter for me. The wind only compounds this problem. What I have learned is that my RPE has no corrolation to the watts I produce e.g. I need RPE 10 to get close to 250 watts downhill even though my FTP is 285.
I’m interested to know how people surf the terrain and keep watts on track or do the clever people choose their outdoor training route to specifically support their training sessions goals.
You need to look at the planned workout and try to find something at least partly conducive to holding power on appropriate terrain.
Chasing downhill to hold a power target in an interval is far from ideal. So, look for stretches of road with length and grade appropriate for the workout.
This again, is one of the reasons that trying to do outside workouts is more challenging and possibly less productive vs inside.
Something we have to try to make as best we can, and accept where it will inevitably fall short.
Here’s what I do when I do a workout outside. I live next to a local park; 3.2 mile loop with a long descent and a short hill.
I try to align the intervals with the terrain, but most times the intervals are longer than the flat or the hill, so I go harder on the hill and a little harder on the flat.
Usually the average watts line up with amwhat I’m supposed to hit, and the bonus is that I get to practice on the course I race.
1 - Use 10s avg Power instead of 3s. It’ll smooth the Power and you will not freak out with the variation of 3s.
2 - Put Avg Lap Power on your screen. This way, if you’re below the target Power, rise it your current Power just a bit until you reach your target. The same principle applies if you’re above your target Power.
3 - Try to find an optimal cadence, where you just ride smooth. This make a lot of difference on Power variation.
4 - Find a section of the road that is feasible to do a workout. You can’t put like 90%+ FTP on a 5% downhill.
5 - Insert Gradient (%) on your screen. It’s good when you’re on roads that are changing from -2% to +2%, so you can antecipate the gears and correct your power output.
6 - Practice! After doing an interval, analize it and see your Variability Index. It’s a good indication of your constant Power output. A VI < 1.05 is good.
I totally agree its a skill / knowledge thing. This time last year 14-16mph was fast for me and now my legs might be capable of putting out the power to do 20mph+ but the rest of me just isn’t there yet.
Just done Antelope tonight, 5 x 10 min sweet spot intervals. I think my issues replicating out on the road maybe two fold…
Did 3 intervals in the big ring at the front and 2 in my usual small ring. Small ring my cadence sat at around 85-90 big ring 95+. Looking at my ride fr0m the other night my cadence never got near 90 on the flats so need to experiment with this.
Second point is following Chad’s instructions I did some time in a more aero position, which I am clearly crap at and RPE went through the roof. I am going to hedge my bets that out on the road I may have been without realising ducking out the wind slightly so again I need to look into this and also practice on the trainer.
Since my last post in May I have been doing more indoor intervals in the big ring. I’m now at the point where the big ring feels ‘easier’ than the little ring and my Heart Rate at Threshold is about 6 beats lower.
But all this being said I still struggle on the flat to put this power out. Last night I drove 20 minutes to a steady climb that also has a long flat nearby. The workout was Lamarck 4 x 10 mins after 2 successful hill repeats right on the money I rolled over the hill to the flat to attempt the 3rd interval there but after 4 minutes 30 watts under target I couldn’t continue.
Turned around to ride back to the car and rode for 4 minutes at threshold going up the backside of the original hill and could have done more if it wasn’t for running out of road.
Any thoughts would be greatly received. Is is just a case of practice?
I do think this one comes down to practice. I’m probably the opposite of most people on this forum - I only just started training indoors and have spent the last few years doing all my riding and workouts outside. I also live in a very flat area (Chicago) so there are no climbs at all. And even with that experience, doing longer sustained intervals on the flats is… weird. I think it comes down to the additional speed and inertia of you and your bike. Threshold seems easy on a 5% grade when you have a longer power stroke with the pedal and you’re not going too fast, but it’s hard to keep that power applied at 28mph on the flats.
Here’s how I approached it with my coach. We went back to RPE for intervals. Know what threshold feels like? Cool, dial that in for your 4x10 (or whatever) workout. Go back and look at the power afterward - it probably won’t be close but it also won’t be that far off. Dial in in by feel. After a few weeks, doing intervals (SS, Threshold, VO2) by RPE was getting me fairly close, so we put the power back on my head unit. Now when I’m doing my intervals I still do them by RPE but check in periodically with the normalized and 3s power to make sure I’m on track. I find on the flats looking at the power meter is impossible but it’s easy for me to hold on to a feeling in my legs. All it took was some re-programming mentally.
I recognize this might be hard for some people because it requires you to relinquish control for a while. You won’t have perfect intervals, your wattage might be a bit low for a while. It’s OK, you’re still doing good work and your body is still making changes. But I think it’s also an important lesson that precision is kind of overrated here. Intervals are fundamentally by zone and zones are ranges - you can achieve the same goal at a wide range of power output. Go out knowing the goal, work towards that goal, and get better. Training is more than following a line on a screen.
How does your cadence change on these efforts. Generally speaking, putting down heavy power on the flat means spinning pretty fast, whereas climbing could see your cadence drop 20 rpm or so below the cadence you’d use on flat road. That’s a huge difference on your heart rate.
On the trainer my cadence seems to sit at around 85-88 ish in the little ring and 90-92 in the big ring.
On the ride in question I averaged 74 and 75rpm on the climb. 85 rpm for the effort on the flat and then 78 rpm for a few minutes at threshold to get back to the car.
When you say you “can’t continue” what do you mean? Is it a mental block (feels too hard)? Heart rate through the roof? Gasping for air?
If you’re in the same position on the same bike, and with the same cadence, then physiologically there shouldn’t be much difference between pushing X watts on the flat and up a hill. I.e. it might feel harder due to the differences in inertia, but it shouldn’t actually be harder i.e. your HR shouldn’t be higher. If there is a big difference in HR at the same power then it could be explained by you pushing a different cadence which you’re just less efficient at (in which case you need to train more at that cadence). Or maybe you’re going into a more aero position on the flat and that’s impacting your hip angle or ability to get oxygen into your lungs. Or (and I’m really reaching here!) the gearing on your bike is a bit out and you’ve got some chain rub in higher gears which is costing you watts (assuming the watts are being measured at the crank or pedal).
If your HR is the same then I think it’s just a case of practice and motivation. I know personally I find it significantly easier mentally to hit power numbers going up a hill than on the flat in training, especially when I’m a bit tired or not having a great day. But when appropriately motivated (a race or a group ride) I have no problem putting out power on the flat. For me it seems to be purely a motivation thing, not a practice thing, so I don’t bother practicing it - I do most of my solo structured and higher intensity work indoors on erg mode or on hills.
Cant continue means struggling for air and legs that just cant push anymore. I haven’t worn a HR monitor outside so I guess that is the next piece of investigation to do.
My Threshold is around 175 on the trainer I presume this is would be the same on the road?
All equipment positions and I use power match so that can be ruled out. I have time tomorrow in the day so could drive to a flat spot and see what my HR is?
Consider also that it was your third interval after spinning at 75 rpm on that climb two times. That’s a considerable amount of muscle fatigue and would make that third interval that little bit tougher, too. 85 rpm on the flat would indicate you may also be generating more muscle fatigue as that’s still below your average indoor cadence for the big ring (This would certainly be the case for me as I spin around 95 rpm on the flat for sweet spot).
In any case, definitely compare heart rate outdoors as well as indoors. I find it to be a really helpful tool to understand my efforts better.
@wapes the answer is: Depending on muscle fibre makeup oxygen consumption and lactate production and HR will be different for the same power/cadence climbing v. flats. Riding on the flats at the same cadence and power recruits more fast twitch muscle fiber compared to climbing.
Over summer I did a few 4x8min sessions at just over threshold on Regents Park inner circle, a mostly flat loop lasting about a minute and a half or so.
What I found helped keep me at target power was to over-gear slightly and lower my cadence a little - almost mimicking climbing. That way it felt like I was using force to judge watts rather than cadence, which somehow seemed to work better.
Why would that be the case? Same cadence and power would be the same force on the pedals and same fiber recruitment. Maybe different muscle recruitment because of position based on the grade but idk about more fast vs slow twitch.
I do a vast majority of my training on a flat road with numerous corners by the ocean. I can say from my experience, putting out strong sustained power on flat terrain is very much a skill. There’s no substitute to actually doing it in the real world. It’s an important skill to learn for all aspects of riding.
I’m now able to hold a very tight HR range and tightish range of power. Sweet spot, threshold and VO2 are all doable. It took me about a year of practicing it to get reasonably good at it. Knowing the wind direction and strength is very helpful. Using the same section of road helps dramatically. Anticipating, headwinds, tailwinds as you turn etc. is important, as is even minor changes in gradient and even road surface.
You basically have to use HIGH COGNITIVE LOAD. It actually makes the efforts much more tolerable for me, especially sweet spot efforts over 30mins. Brain has to be engaged the whole time. It’s kinda crazy that this is an issue really, it’s almost like structured indoor training is forcing people to learn cycling backwards.
You’ll never execute an interval / effort as perfectly on the road. However, you don’t have to be perfect. There’s no such thing. We certainly don’t know if the prescribed interval is the perfect training that day anyway. It is just an educated guess, at best. The fact you slip over and under this supposedly perfect interval power is likely close to irrelevant. We are not robots. Zones / Levels are not hard lines, they are a range. I’m certain, with time, you’ll nail it.
I was really motivated especially knowing I was going to share the ride and drove to one of the flat parts around. I effectively managed 4 lots at 91% and at the time really didn’t feel like I could have put anything else out. However, after getting to the car I went and did another hour as it was such a nice day and accumulated another 60 TSS.
Having done this today I feel it is a combination of practice and HTFU. In that gear doing 20mph+ it doesn’t feel the same as on my trainer in the big ring. I think I need to go back to using my rollers and do some practice in big gears. Not had them out since getting a smart trainer.
As for hardening up, on the trainer I grimace, sweat, swear etc… you name it, it hurts. I think for some reason I was expecting different on the road?
