Hard FTP intervals - impact on VO2max?

I THINK Coach Chad said on the podcast recently that VO2 Max training should be done at 120 percent of FTP, and that if you are below 110, you are training different energy systems.

This is something that interests me, too. I do 2 different types of VO2max workouts but my thinking was the opposite of yours(I suspect my thinking is wrong, though)

First one is 3 sets of 15 x 30/30s at 130% of FTP. I realise that 130% FTP could be viewed as anaerobic, but I presume I couldn’t complete the workout if it truly was. I suspect this just indicates that my FTP as a % MAP is low.

The other one I do is 6x5min 2x(30sec @ 130% - 1min @ 100%) + (30sec @ 130% - 1.5min @ 100%)

My thinking is that the first type is less glycolytic and therefore doesn’t raise VLamax as much. I find the second type of intervals much harder and I’m usually breathing a lot harder than during the 30/30s.

Also being in Switzerland, my focus is mainly on climbs of 45 - 60min so having a decent FTP and TTE is what I’m trying to develop.

Nope, 120÷ is in the middle of power that is high enough to elicit VO2 max. You can also achieve it (better way) with hard start intervals: Comparing Metabolic Response to Hard-Start VO2max Intervals – Spare Cycles

It doesn’t work like this. As soon as you’re over FTP, you’ve got anaerobic metabolism contribution. So going hard on your intervals will probably require 100% glycolytic contribution. Despite this, don’t worry about vlamax… it’s a small thing casting a big shadow.

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Im a diesel too, but seem incapable of doing much more than 90 secs at AC or 120% FTP which just mullers me. It means I need to do more of this, as it is my weakness I dot see much point doing endless sweetspot training when Im good at this anyway, and just use it to focus on drills etc and keeping sane during this stupid lockdown. Not that I cant ride outside, I am addicted to TR at the mo.

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Two true things to consider.

First, VO2max isn’t a power…it is a physiologic condition. You can be in a VO2max condition at powers less than your FTP. See Bilat et al. It’s important to remember that…VO2max is not a power number.

Second, there are two schools of thought for training VO2max. The first, and by far the most popular, is that you need to accumulate training time at the VO2max condition. This goes to the heart of your question! ;-D However, I would ask you to get in the wayback machine and remember the Alan Couzens VO2max case study that Coach Chad and the Lads (this was Pre-Amber, more’s the pity) discussed during the TR podcast**. Remember that athlete increased VO2max by a whopping 40+% by cutting Threshold & VO2 work almost in half but increasing Easy and Aerobic work a lot (6x and 2x respectively). There is a case where less time at VO2max lead to superior VO2max adaptation.

I think a lot of experienced cycling coaches would say that increased volume leads to increased VO2max adaptation, period. Added intensity can increase VO2max on an intermediate-term basis…that’s called peaking.

**Please refer to episode 214

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Mainly carbs yes, but could be aerobic glycolysis as well to a certain extent right?

What would be an example of a good VO2max workout in your view? (I know you’re making a living with this so obviously I understand if you keep it a “trade secret”.)

I basically know nothing about physiology, but from a practical point of view, the problems with going really hard (100%VO2max? :scream:) for me are:

  1. you need to be really well rested (hence you have to sacrifice training load on the day(s) before),
  2. it’s mentally taxing (high “psychological price”, perhaps not sustainable in the long run)
  3. (vague:) you can’t accumulate much time at 100% VO2max, so there’s certainly a huge trade-off in terms of time spent in the targeted zone.

Well, I actually don’t how hard you have to go for 100% VO2max. Subjectively I’d say I only get there during the last seconds of my intervals or during the last minute of a 5’ test.

My current practice seems to be quite different from what you recommend; 4x8’ 280-285w, 6x6’ 290-295w… So I’m quite a lot below my best 5’ of 335w. (I know VO2max is not the power but the max. rate of oxygen uptake :wink: - but still as a reference…). On the other hand it’s easy to fit in the training plan even with some fatigue and mentally sustainable.

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Thanks for the input. I’d say that my volume is already pretty high (just looked at my stats, 18h/week av. since the beginning of the year with 80% zone1+2). But I believe the high-intensity component is important too and can’t be replaced by just riding a lot.

If you’re really going to focus on trying to improve vo2max, work needs to be done in focused blocks with plenty of recovery time. The strategy is different if you think you’re already at your max, where you only want to work as hard as you need to and no more.

The general guidelines for time at 100% vo2max is 10-12 minutes total is an effective dose. I have not yet chased this down so my opinion may change when I do. That is received wisdom from some very smart people. You’ll also hear it as a range of 95-100%, or something like that.

I’m currently putting together a podcast on how to do better vo2max intervals. Will be coming up at some point in the next few weeks to a month, but will DM with a few suggestions.

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I still try to do one VO2max workout a week! Just because I like to do that type of workout.

Once had the chance to fiddle around with some muscle oxygen sensors and one of those super-expensive masks that measures oxygen in and oxygen out (VO2 pro…or master…something like that). I tried a 30-30 interval, couple 4 minute intervals, and a hard start interval. By far most time at VO2max was during the hard start interval.

image

For me, the 30-30 intervals feel easier because they are easier. :wink: Your mileage may vary. I feel like recovery from hard start intervals is easier than 4-minute intervals…you just have to get used to the feeling that your suffocating during the hard start intervals.

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I’m going to guess…4x 6(40/20) @ all out% FTP.

I’ll give it a try and let you know how fast I fail. :grin:

? What ?

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Exactly what I was thinking. Inappropriate comment from the donut.

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It’s not my reasoning!!! :point_down:

Granted, not sure if that’s referring to ‘max effort’ or ‘VO2max max’ intervals, so your guess is as good as mine (but mine’s probably right :laughing: ).

What I read from the context

  • reaching 100% oxygen uptake (vo2max) is frequently seen doing max efforts of 20-60 seconds long
  • practical guideline: breathing as hard as you can

which I have found to be true on group rides and any ride with short, full gas efforts.

For example last week was doing some 1-minute efforts by feel, and ignoring power meter and HR. Here are the final 2 efforts (out of 6), with 4-min recovery between efforts:

(2nd interval stutter - lost my nerve to go full gas on a hard left turn when the timer said go just a few seconds too early)

and after the ride looking at the data it took:

  • a hard start effort at 240% FTP (600W)
  • settling into 180% FTP (450W)

to reach that state of maximum oxygen uptake. Power on both was nearly the same. Again was doing those by feel (earlier efforts much lower power), and after the ride noted that HR took ~20-seconds to jump from 84% HRmax to above 90%. Was totally “gassed” and needed close to a minute for breathing to recover.

Always fun to look at modeled vo2max in WKO5:

and dFRC:

Those last two were at 93% of PDC for 1-min, which seems somewhat inline with earlier WKO4 webinars on intervals. Certainly felt like I hit max oxygen uptake on the last 4 of 6, but intervals 3 and 4 took like 40-sec before I was breathing hard (500W start and 385W plateau).

I’m an older diesel with ok-ish max 5-sec power (1000-1200W) and ~250W ftp, was a little surprised by how many W and % over FTP it took to quickly push myself to max oxygen uptake on this experiment somewhat along the lines of anaerobic capacity style intervals (e.g. 6x1-min with 4-min RBI).

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This is kind of my thinking behind doing my 3x15 30/30s at 130% FTP. The best year I ever had on the bike, my coach had me doing 3 sets of 5 30/30s all out on the a dumb trainer. No power targets, just all out! I hated them and they hurt like hell, but the session was over pretty quickly. Otherwise i was doing loads of endurance and 1 threshold workout per week. My lungs felt bottomless that season. Maybe I should just go back to doing those :man_shrugging:

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When did your coach having you doing these? Towards your A race? Or sprinkled throughout?

I was doing them once a week over a period of 18 weeks when riding outside was limited by the weather. My training was extremely simple. Loads of endurance, 1 x threshold and the 30/30s.

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Exactly polarised. Seems a good way to go I think.

I should clarify… those are max efforts, and not everyone can drive themselves into enough oxygen debt to elicit that. Just a note on when you can frequently see vo2max elicited briefly, to emphasize it’s not actually tied to a particular work rate.

In practical terms of training and adaptation, longer 2-8 minute intervals elicit vo2max for longer, more continuous periods of time. Though there’s a good study on runners where they add 10% to “vo2max velocity” and do alternating 30" or 1’ intervals at that intensity for like 30 minutes, and they bounce up and down from 100% vo2max the whole time.

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