And where do all the titanium tubes come from to build such frames, or even mine the titanium. Not in the US.
So we’re back to square one. Buying foreign produced materials.
1 Like
Why do you assume this? There are TONS of tube and plate mills all over the US that produce more material types than you could imagine. Many are also very competitive in pricing with their international counterparts.
I have toured, audited, and inspected many of these tube mills personally.
According to the Moots website, they’ve been sourcing their titanium from a mill in Washington for the last 15+ years. They were the first frame fabricator that I checked, but doubt they’re the only one.
Wonder where the ore comes from these days. 
There’s also 3 states with titanium mines in the US. I don’t really care to that granularity to disprove if the American titanium tube mills are sourcing their ore from these mines. Someone else can if they find it that interesting 
1 Like
How many Lynskey bikes do I need to buy to melt down to make an SR-71? Asking for a friend 
3 Likes
Moots and Parlee are examples of US made quality frames. They can’t build for the masses and are expensive for that quality and US build. Moots may source their tubes from US mills yet 90-95% of raw titanium is imported.
We’re all on the same page. There are lots of exceptions, yet the majority of quality frames are not made domestically and when they are, they are cost prohibitive for many, plus their manufacturing volume can’t supply the needs. If you’ve got the cash, we should all buy from home and support our local companies. We just aren’t there at this time and probably will never be. It’s a bummer but factual.
2 Likes
The really insane thing about this is that America DID build INCREDIBLE carbon frames not all that long ago. I sometimes feel that the investor class has ‘trained’ Americans to assume that ‘we’ can’t do anything right or well and why should we even try. ‘We’ve’ been trained to say that manufacturing can’t come back here while we buy towels from Pakistan and shoes from Vietnam.
We have been very effectively trained to believe that we can’t compete with former and actual communist countries, which is crazy. If the investors could be weened away from their massive profits they would be happy as pigs in poop to bring manufacturing back onshore, but the political class loves using the dearth of manufacturing to enrage the worker class so they can blame it on someone else. We COULD if we wanted to. America lead the world in manufacturing for decades, centuries, and it was all sold for profit of the 5%. It sickens me to see Americans ripping this country.
The world makes their own fast food, they don’t need to come here to get it, and that’s about all we have left. (that and the most expensive healthcare system with some of the worst results of any ‘developed’ nation)
/vent
3 Likes
Yes. Sorry, should have said that.
Oh no, for sure. If they’re the same price I’m not intentionally buying foreign. The reality is that it’s never that simple. The foreign product is almost always going to be cheaper.
Take wheels. ENVE is made in the US. My last 2 wheelsets were Chinese (Farsports). Why? Cost. Simple. I would love an ENVE set. I think the triple white logos are beautiful and they make stellar wheels. But Farsports are very good and cost half as much. I’m not intentionally buying foreign but the cost alone is the reason.
Then it gets murky with other brands. SRAM is a US brand but manufacture overseas. Should I buy SRAM if the money is still going overseas? Is that still buying American? But it also brings up the point of preference. Even if SRAM was 100% made in America, I’m still buying Shimano. Because I just prefer it. So much like cars, the US makes cars but I’m still buying a Honda.
But back to my main point of, I’m probably going to choose foreign made products 95% of the time. Not because of preference or wanting to buy foreign. But because of cost. And with the massive tariffs, that doesn’t shift my purchase to US products most times. It just means I stop buying all together. The problem in the bike industry is that very few products are made in the US. Or make products that can compete with foreign brands. ENVE can but they’re expensive. I’m sorry but I don’t think I’d ever consider an Allied or Ari. I don’t even know many US brands because, and I hate to say it, the US just doesn’t make good bike products (apart from ENVE).
1 Like
I would say it’s almost a zero factor for me. But that’s personal and I totally understand that many other people would feel differently. But for me, it’s quality 1, price 2. Location of manufacture is so low down the list that I could say it’s effectively not even considered. And this is not just bikes. Like I go buy clothes, I can 100% say I’ve never checked a tag to look at where it’s made. And if the sales person told me where, I doubt it would cause me to shop elsewhere, regardless of where it’s made.
Back to ENVE. Say they open a factory in China or Taiwan. And you can go to their website, and when you’re picking a wheelset, they have US-made for the current pricing, and they have overseas for 20% less. They guarantee the same quality. I’m picking the cheaper option every single time. That’s just how it is. My job isn’t going to pay me more if I buy US-made stuff.
Now I will say that ENVE might be in a good spot already having the manufacturing in the US. With the new tariffs, those $1500 or whatever Chinese wheelsets are getting a massive price increase. Now those ENVEs don’t look so bad. So in that sense maybe the tariffs did exactly what they meant to. The only problem is that with prices going up everywhere, new carbon wheels aren’t anywhere near the front of my mind. So it’s a catch 22. So in reality they just cause a lot of anger and frustration. I guess I’m not buying DTC Chinese bike stuff so there’s that.
3 Likes
I don’t think such a product exists in the consumer world anymore….at least not at the retail level.
1 Like
@Eddy_Twerckx - I think there’s a few tiers of things being American and their level of support for US jobs, ranging from owned/designed/marketed/sold by an American company, but made overseas, vs all those things and made here. Of course, there’s plenty of tiers in between.
I don’t think anyone should sacrifice quality just to buy American. I hear you on cost but personally have enough pride to support American companies that I’m often willing to pay a bit more for something made in the US. I think it’s an important way to help contribute to our businesses and prevent more and more products from going overseas and eliminating US jobs.
You make a good point on the wheels, that’s one I hadn’t considered and wasn’t aware that Enve were made here. When I had my Mosaic built, I actually chose Reserve over Enve due to some things I had heard customer service wise about Enve. Reserve carbon hoops are manufactured overseas, but trued/assembled/etc. in the US. Also owned by Santa Cruz. I didn’t know this until I just looked, but it wouldn’t have moved the needle. They also had more features I wanted than the Enve’s.
@Power13 you’re right. Granted, there’s many instances where American products are superior in quality and customer support/warranty. That does, however, come at an increased cost.
Hate to break it to you, but Reserve is owned by Pon (a dutch company), just like Cervelo, Santa Cruz, and lots of other brands
1 Like
That’s ok. I don’t think I mentioned that Santa Cruz/Reserve was owned by a US company? Just that the wheels are assembled in the US. Also that where my Reserve wheels were made/who owned them, was not part of that purchasing decision.
Kind of highlights why I stopped worrying about where a product was made. Brands are bought and sold so often that most times I couldn’t even tell you where a company is based or where they source their parts or where they manufacture their products. I actually just learned Scott Bikes was Swiss. No clue where they make their bikes though. It just gets too hard to keep track.
3 Likes
It will be easy to dismiss this as “who cares, it is only mass merchant, cheap bikes” but this is just an example of what is coming in many product categories. I’ve already mentioned how my company is exiting the traditional, manual blood pressure monitor.
1 Like
So they are choosing ‘suicide’? They already have an onshore plant. Is it because they can’t sourse supplies onshore?
There is no infrastructure in the US to get them the components they need….any components they bring in will get hit with the massive tariffs.
As I have highlighted for months and Josh Poertner illustrated in his recent podcast, if you want to encourage a shift to US production, you need to remove tariffs on raw materials / components and then allow companies to begin to shift production.
You could then implement a policy of rising tariffs on components over the course of 5-10 years as the domestic infrastructure in built up.
6 Likes
Pretty safe to assume that isn’t what the intent of these tariffs is
10 Likes
Probably similar arrangement to that between the UK and EU, since we left the EU. Goods can be sent delivery duty paid or delivery duty unpaid. In the former case the sender pays the duty, in the latter case you need to pay the duty (and VAT) due before the goods are released for delivery to you.
What you’ll often get is an item where you can either buy it at the price without any duty or VAT applied, in which case you’ll pay it on import or the price that includes duty and VAT and the supplier will pre pay the duty and taxes due. In reality you’ve paid them as they were included in the price you paid.
Knowing what the BSO’s use for components, I figured they could be made anywhere. (We all have likely seen some really primitive parts on ‘big box’ bikes) Yeah, they are pretty screwed, because even if they were exporting finished frames, they would get beaten bloody on the return trip. Unless they could get the parts to a low tariffed country and do assembly there. They need to talk to BDO, or Markum! 
(BSO = Bicycle Shaped Object)
