Well
It depends on lots of factors. Work time available to rest, fueling, family. If I only have this to do in my life (ride) problaby I could do a few.
The bolded part is where you’ve gone off the tracks…
At the same intensity, 5 h is clearly > 1 h. But is, say, 5 h at a lower intensity clearly >2 h at a higher intensity? The answer is, there is no evidence of that. IOW, what matters is the overall training load, not the duration of isolated workouts.
Of course, there is a limit to which you can compensate for lower volume by increasing the intensity, just as there is a limit to which you can compensate for lower intensity by increasing the volume. In between, “all roads lead to Rome” (or as my wife once astutely put it, there is no such thing as the perfect training plan).
It’s your glycogen budget - spend it wisely.
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I wonder how much of the disagreement here relates to how people are measuring their “FTP.”
I’m gonna go out on a limb and guess that you’re probably using something around 1h power for your FTP, (?) whereas many commenters are probably using a ramp test, or maybe a 20min or something.
If that’s true, that may explain some of the disbelief and the statements that it’s impossible to do 0.88 for 3h. Because then you’d be talking about 0.88 of 1h power while they’re talking about 0.88 of like 20-30min power… which is a very different beast.
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As I have said before, I’m sure that is a contributing factor.
To the extent that it is, it illustrates how you can’t just treat FTP as “a number to go by”. It is far more than that, and if you overestimate* it using suboptimal approaches such as a ramp test, it creates all sorts of issues.
*Of course no one underestimates their FTP, 'cause ego.
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Ok, now we are getting somewhere…. Since what matters is the load, when you get 300 TSS in a long ride, this is clearly better than 3h rides, because it’s impossible to ride at 100% FTP x 3 hours.
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It can’t be that just hitting a TSS number gets you the same progression no matter how you do it; VO2 and anaerobic work gives you different adaptations than hitting similar TSS numbers via endless Z2 work.
And to your specific example, surely the right question is, if you did the same 300 TSS ride as two 150 TSS rides, totaling the same ride time, is that better or worse?
My question for @The_Cog would be, what’s your preferred way to measure overall training load in this context? TSS seems imperfect.
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Well you’d be talking about 0.88 of 0.95 of 20 min power, which is 0.836. You would not be taking your 20 min power to be your FTP.
Welcome to the world of structured training versus just dong what you like and hoping you will get better at it.
One of stalwarts of swim coaching, Terry Laughlin in his seminal book Total Immersion said “Are swimming to learn or learning to swim”. Of course what he was getting at was that most amateur athletes don’t train, they just swim, or ride, jump, run, etc and hope that will lead to improved performance. If you are very unfit, it does. But you will plateau.
So training has a number of dimensions. There is technique, not the dominant aspect of riding, technique is largely about re-progamming your neurology, getting rid of past technique applying new, eg, cadence, single leg, body position, belly breathing, etc.
Then there are performance aspects of Strength, Endurance and Speed of movement, all related to the energy system. Nearly all periodisation approaches include different intensity, and Zone 2 endurance dominates most of them. It is the zone that builds mitochondria, blood vessels like capillaries, all essential to delivering power when other aspects of performance need them.
Training requires discipline it isn’t about just having fun on your bike. Doing a zone 2 endurance ride is, IMO, the hardest zone to ride in. As a competitive person, I want to work hard. When the incline rises, the wind angle changes into in your face, or some others pass me, my instinct is work harder, instead of lowering the gear, keeping my HR down within the zone, it is bloody hard, my irrational mind wants to just have fun, I feel like a wimp.
But that is training.
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Just as “all roads lead to Rome”, “Rome wasn’t built in a day.”
IOW, I meant/you need to look at the big picture - a single workout in isolation means/proves nothing.
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I take it that you’re fairly new to power-based training?
PPP: It’s called training stress score and not training adaptation score for a reason.
That said, and despite all the criticism directed at TSS by others/for other reasons over the years, no one has shared a better alternative, so…
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Please stop repeating such falsehoods.
As I have pointed out many times before, such adaptations take place over a VERY broad range of training intensities, and in fact are greater per unit “dose” (and with respect to capillarization, greater, period) at higher intensities.
It also sounds like you need to go have more fun on your bike - the only purpose of the rigid “intensity discipline” during your “zone 2” rides would seem to be to give you a sense of superiority.
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You didn’t read between the lines, and I wasn’t clear enough.
I meant a 5 times 1hr ride versus a longer 5hrs ride. In theory, they produce the same effect.
Imaginative schedule:
a) 5 x 2 hr ride. 100TSS per ride = 500TSS
b) 3 x 2hr ride + 1 x 4hr = 300TSS + 200TSS (long ride).
There’s no scientific evidence that the schedule “B” is better, or that it produces specific benefits due to the longer ride.
What I meant was, that even though there’s no science backing it up, doesn’t mean that it’s not helpful. There’s a mental aspect, coping with longer rides, etc, etc, etc, etc.
if I can, I’d go for schedule “B”.
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Oh I bow and grovel to you O’lord and master and sole source of coaching knowledge.
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Me too, but only because training 4 d/wk is better than training just 2 d/wk. In addition to duration and intensity, frequency matters as well.
Again, there are no unique physiological adaptations that result from “going long”.
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Perfect.
And I’m not in position to discuss this with you. I tried not to be those idiots arguing on the internet about something that they have no idea.
My point is: physiologically speaking = no benefit to going longer. Athlete point of view: there is. What, I don’t know. It can be purely mental.
So if a 4-hour ride gives the athlete a mental feeling that that was better than several small rides, go for it.
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Andy,
thank you for posting on here and telling us your actual opinions and not being Politically correct when disagreeing with someone else. wish everyone had passion for their field like you do yours.
? I understand your zones are descriptive of a ride after the fact. how would you recommend coaches (or platforms like trainer-road) prescribe workouts? meaning, would you want to see something like “ride one hour at an intensity such that xxx”? or would you want coaches to still prescribe certain wattages? or would it be something like “yesterday you did a 0.7 IF for an hour. go a little harder than that today for an hour”
? TLDR what would be the best method for a coach to prescribe a workout? (words, ranges, other?)
tytyty
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I second the appreciation for @The_Cog frankly sharing knowledge here. I run an immunology research lab, and I’m trying to imagine how I’d do on a forum with a bunch of semi-informed and highly opinionated doofuses arguing about the topics I’ve worked on for decades. Both your expertise and your patience are exceptional, and greatly appreciated!
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Something along those lines, at least for actual bicycling.
Indoors on an erg, you can be more precise, but in the big scheme of things that’s really more of a niche application, and not what I had in mind when I proposed my levels. (Despite the fact that I have done most of my own training indoors in ergometer mode for decades.)
As I have said from the get-go, the primary point of reference is always the power that an individual has recently generated during efforts of similar duration.
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Back when I raced and trained with a coach years ago, he would give me very wide ranges for endurance rides. My ftp was about 350 at the time and I would be told to ride 2 hours between 215-265w based on how I felt. It would usually be a day like this both before and after a hard interval workout inbetween them.
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