Drop Bar MTB Geo

[Aradell]

Sorry, this is a long post.
TL;DR; I love this drop bar MTB!

I completed my build in February (post above). Since then, I’ve ridden it for about 2000km (1250mi). This has been 50% commuting, the other 50% gravel and mellow MTB riding.

I adapted pretty quickly to the position, yes it’s quite long, but not uncomfortably so. After riding it a lot, I’m actually more comfortable on this bike than on my road bike. The bike is a Large Airwolf YFM026 (SC Highball clone). I put on a rigid fork (also Airwolf) with an A-C length of 480mm. This made the reach of the bike 465mm, with a 71° HA and 74.4° SA. I settled on a 70mm / -7° stem, combined with a handlebar with short reach (70mm). And I slammed the seat almost all the way forward, which is the case on all my bikes, not just this one.

I love the way this bike rides, very stable and fast, even on singletrack! At the moment, I have 2.35" Thunder Burts mounted on 30mm IW Nextie rims. Very fast, and more than enough grip when things are dry. But they wear out pretty quickly. So I’m gonna try 2.2" Race Kings next. And in winter, I’ll put on 2.35" slicks for beach racing.

Stuff I don’t like about the bike is the groupset on it. I tried to save some money with a LTwoo gravel groupset (mechanical). Which works fine for commuting, but on gravel or MTB roads, with lots of shifting, it’s just way too slow, or doesn’t shift at all under small load (<200W). So I’m thinking about changing the groupset. I really want to keep the Shimano calipers. Just change up the shifters and derailleur. So GRX 12 speed?
@Upcountry How is the GRX/105 Di2 combo holding up?

Some pictures from a recent race I did: It was a flat 200km “MTB” race with this bike. It’s actually quite mellow terrain with flowing singletrack. But the rain of the last months turned the race into a mudfest.
(Note, my brother has the same bike. He just chose to build it as a rigid flat bar MTB)

[mrjustinpitts]

Perhaps this has been discussed earlier in the thread but how much time do you actually spend in the drops? Visually, it seems like you have pretty aggressive saddle-to-bar drop numbers. One of the reasons I enjoy drop bars on my trail bike is that the bars keep my hands in a more natural position and the force of impacts on the front wheel drive the bars more firmly into the palm on my hand, lending to a greater feeling of security. This comes from the fact that the bike was designed for use with drop bars and you are meant to always be in the drops. Anyway, here’s a pic, I’ve had this thing for around 12 years now and am still completely pleased with how it rides and what it can handle.

[Aradell]

For me, It’s a lot like a gravel bike, or cyclocross for that matter.
The neutral position is in the hoods, so most of my time is spent here. The drops are used to get more aero or having a different position. And I get in the drops when the trails get rougher or more difficult since being in the drops gives more control, especially when descending.

Having a bit off flare on the handlebars also helps with this.

[drwelby]

@Aradell

I tried to save some money with a LTwoo gravel groupset (mechanical). Which works fine for commuting, but on gravel or MTB roads, with lots of shifting, it’s just way too slow, or doesn’t shift at all under small load (<200W). So I’m thinking about changing the groupset. I really want to keep the Shimano calipers. Just change up the shifters and derailleur. So GRX 12 speed?

I liked the Ltwoo shifter style but their rear derailleur was terrible. It’s one the same pull as Shimano 11 speed so I swapped it for a Sride 520c and then the system worked much better. Swapping it for a GRX would improve things too and if you’re still not impressed then you can switch the levers later.

[Upcountry]

I didn’t really have anything negative to say about my Epic HT build. The geometry takes a ride or two to get used to, but its not like there is anything natural about riding a bike, so they all take a bit of time. I’d been spending quite a bit of time on my Epic Evo leading up to my last race, and with another one in August. The more time I spent on it, the more I disliked riding my Crux(for sale) or the Epic HT(for sale). While tires do give some cushion, there is a substantial difference, and I do think suspension can be a worthy addition, if not for speed alone, simply for the enjoyment of the actual ride itself. Thats not to say that everyone needs suspension on their “gravel bike”, but for “my gravel”, its pretty easy to justify. Its also worth mentioning, I’m not doing your typical 100 mile full gas gravel races any longer, so the stereotypical “gravel race bike” is no longer what I want.

I got everything swapped over from the HT to the WC yesterday, but haven’t ridden it other than around the property. Rather than trying to mimic the Crux geometry, as I initially did on the HT, I kind of just went by feel, while knowing that I’d end up higher up front than typical, and so the added reach wouldn’t be as much of a negative. Setup with a Syntace Flatforce 77mm stem currently and it feels pretty right, but time will tell. Specialized gets crap for dozens of reasons, but man their bikes build up really easy… Brake mounts are true, internal routing paths smooth, etc.

Total weight here as shown with pedals, cages, and power meter is 21.55lbs. So three pounds heavier than the HT, with the identical build kit, but honestly I’ve largely quit worrying about weight off-road(within reason).

[Kactusdog]

That’s what i’m thinking for mine too, just had a very enlightening ride. Instantly thinking to make this an 80mm.

Y’all, this set up is the TICKET.

I went over bumpy single track. A rocky, rooty trail. Torn up pavement. Not a problem! This SID 100mm ate it all up. I am running suspension with about 25% sag, and I was just floating over everything. The reach is also much more manageable than how dropped down it was rigid. I’m really loving the set up, I was worried about the 42 mm offset of the fork but that hasn’t been an issue thus far.

[Aradell]

Yeah, I actually like the Campy style shifters. And the braking is also fine with the shimano calipers (for the use case of this bike)
I have the 12-speed GRT group, so I don’t think there is a direct swap possible? Or is the pull ratio the same for LTwoo 12-speed and Shimano GRX 12-speed aswell?

[drwelby]

The pull ratio is the same between GRX and the LTWOO GR, so I’d expect that carries to the 12 speed versions of each. But I haven’t tried that combo in 12 speed, only 11.

[Upcountry]

It took about ten minutes for the verdict to come in… This is the winning ticket.
I have zero hesitation in saying that this bike is faster over my local gravel/dirt roads than any of the other bikes I’ve owned.

The traction out of the saddle pushing up little pitches at 600 watts is insane. The ability to stay seated and pedal through ruts and over washboard is very easily worth the couple pounds of extra weight. Leaning into loose corners at 20mph feels super stable, and planted. Typically on the standard forest roads on a gravel bike I find myself hopping from the outside line to the apex, and then back to the outside line, and hoping that the middle line isn’t too loose. With the added traction of wider tires and the suspension working, its really reassuring, and lets you push deeper into that corner with more speed. Brain forks get a ton of flak from what I’ve read out there, and this is my first experience on one, so I don’t have a depth of experiences with them, but I do really appreciate that I can just set the “Brain Fade” to one position, and let it do its thing. Same goes for the rear end; as there is obviously no “lockout” but it doesn’t feel needed, even when I was hammering up the paved climb to start my ride. And as a result, there isn’t a need to reach down and change anything after certain sectors of road/gravel/trail. I could see the downsides on a true XC bike, but for this use case, it seems truly ideal. Obviously this is a pretty niche build, and haters will hate, but if you’ve gotten this far in this thread, you’re likely a little more adventurous than most…

[Upcountry]

I’m right there with you… I was avoiding the suspension fork, and probably got too hung up on “matching” my other bike fits. While the result was totally acceptable, I’m really happy with the bit higher front end, and the extra couple pounds is insignificant.
I’d be way open for something like an 80mm travel fork, but can’t see rushing to change anything on my setup now.

[Kactusdog]

From what I understand, it’s a matter of swapping out the air shaft to a 32mm stanchion 80mm travel shaft. Like 40 bucks retail.

It would afford you more of a 480 AtoC fork length. Even steeper at sag.

I’m curious of your Brain fade settings, I went slightly towards the open side from the middle. And then went like 15% sag.

I think i’ll be trying much more firm and then 25% sag. AKA less pressure.

I’m currently running 75 psi at 170 lbs.

[Aradell]

Just some thoughts:

Let me start by saying, I love this build and blurring the lines between gravel and mountainbike. And I see gravel bikes moving more and more into this direction in the coming years.
But you do start to wonder how much of an advantage the drop bars really are on a build like this.

Let’s say you build 2 identical S-works World cup bikes. You build one with drop bars (like this build), the other with standard flat bars with a aggressive position and some bartape in the center of the bars. All the rest is equal.

Let’s compare:

• On all the fast & straight sections, you can get yourself in a aero position on both bikes (granted, it’s more comfortable when you need to hold this for a long time with drop bars then with flat bars). So the speed on both bikes would be similar.
• When cornering, the wider flat bars will give more control, so you could argue you’re faster with the flat bars.
• When going uphill, some riders swear the leverage of the flat bars gives an advantage. I’m not so sure. But you would be less aero then with drop bars, so let’s call it even.
• When descending. It’s a toss-up between aero and control, so it really depends on how rough the roads/trail is

My point being: “is the best gravel bike just a MTB that is correctly set-up for some fast riding?”

This is ofcourse heavily influenced by the terrain your riding, but where is the cross-over point?
I love that about gravel. There is never one set-up that is best for all gravel riding. There are endless possibility’s to try and find a setup that works for you and your riding.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk

[wake]

@Aradell

But you do start to wonder how much of an advantage the drop bars really are on a build like this.

This has been my question as well. Thinking about it, I can see a few scenarios where drop bars would benefit over flat bars:

1. A lot of straight washboard sections. No need to turn, but want the suspension to smooth out the traction and the ride (I’m guessing that inbound would meet this criterion).
2. A lot of very tight group riding, where the narrower bars enable you to move around in the bunch without tapping bars (probably important for the pointy end of most races?).

And honestly, that’s all that I can think of.

Personally right now, since I don’t race at the pointy end, I don’t need suspension on a drop bar bike. My rides are either a lot of pavement, or a lot of singletrack. The choice is simpler that way.

Can anybody else identify a specific type of ride where drop bars AND suspension would both be beneficial? Beyond the ones I’ve listed?

[jn92]

TL;DR at what point does gravel racing just become glorified XC Marathon racing

[FrankTuna]

Depends on the course. Lots of gravel rides near me have everything from pavement to rock gardens, so I’m glad to have big tires and drop bars

Plus…it’s an excuse to have more bikes

[stefanf]

In Norway we have a gravel-event that is classified as MTB (Birkebeinerrittet) and you need to have a flat-bar bike to be able to compete for podiums and to get the “buckle” (which in this case is an asterisk by your name in the results sheet).
In our norwegian bike-forum there is a guy who just have built an optimized bike for this race, and gone the complete opposite of the creations in this thread. I find i do like both the curved bar mtb’s and this flat bar gravel bike quite much. Horses for courses i guess.

Prosjekttråd? - Jamez' Birkensykkel 2024

[Upcountry]

@Aradell

• On all the fast & straight sections, you can get yourself in a aero position on both bikes (granted, it’s more comfortable when you need to hold this for a long time with drop bars then with flat bars). So the speed on both bikes would be similar.
• When cornering, the wider flat bars will give more control, so you could argue you’re faster with the flat bars.
• When going uphill, some riders swear the leverage of the flat bars gives an advantage. I’m not so sure. But you would be less aero then with drop bars, so let’s call it even.
• When descending. It’s a toss-up between aero and control, so it really depends on how rough the roads/trail is

My point being: “is the best gravel bike just a MTB that is correctly set-up for some fast riding?”

I can totally understand the confusion/skepticism/critiques of these bikes. I’ve prefaced it by saying I don’t think everyone needs one of these… As I mentioned, I’ve spent more time on the Epic Evo(any flat bar bike for that matter) in the last three months than I ever have. This was building up towards two “bikepacking” races. The first was mid-May(365 miles, 33k ft vert, 50% singletrack/50%dirt road), and the second is in August(525 miles, 70k ft vert, 75% singletrack). I largely consider myself a “roadie”, and as such, given a choice, I reach for drop bars four or five times a week. It was great to almost be forced to spend some more time on the flat bars of the Epic Evo, as that was the race setup I’ll be using for both races. But with that, there are definitely days where two or three hours in I’m really wishing I had the hand/arm/upper body position that is afforded by drop bars. I run what most would consider pretty slammed/extreme/aggressive on my road bikes, and despite only being 5’10", I’m running a 110 x -17d stem on a Large Epic Evo, with relatively narrow bars by todays standards, at ~730mm. I do have some big ole Cane Creek Bar ends that really do offer a nice perch on longer rides. (also worth mentioning, that for the race in May, I ran some mini-clip on aero bars, and they were essential. I’m honestly debating running them for the second race, despite the ratio of singletrack)

So, with that disclaimer out of the way… Personally, I find drop bars to be more comfortable for pretty much any situation that isn’t singletrack… Living where I do(rural Northern California), I have a 3 mile paved climb up to hundreds of miles of forest roads, with about 50 miles of randomly scattered moto trails. I haven’t loaded a bike into a car/truck for a ride in over three years. So each and every ride has some pavement, and is mostly dirt/gravel roads, with some options for trails. Drop bars make getting to those trails more efficient, and also create a bit of that “underbiking” feel on the trails should I opt for them. But truly I get just as much enjoyment out of sticking to the double track, and so the amount of time I’m “wishing” for wider or flatter bars is really small. I genuinely did consider going with a size Large Epic WC, and building it with a really long and narrow front end, as I have gotten more accustomed with the extra time on the Evo. But I worried there would be way too much similarity, and it seemed a bit ridiculous. I could always have just swapped on the lighter wheelset with narrower tires onto the Epic Evo for the less “trail” focused days, but what fun is there in that.

I am in no way the normal rider, and can fully admit to having the most niche of use cases(250+ mile non-stop races). I’m fortunate that I can justify building a very specific tool for my very specific jobs/races/routes. Suspension has already proven itself as a benefit to me for these races, and I think the melding of drop bars and suspension will be really welcomed.

To sum it up, Yes, I would bet that MOST people would be more comfortable, and as fast if not faster on a well thought out mountain bike for their “gravel rides/races”.

[Aradell]

@Upcountry

I can totally understand the confusion/skepticism/critiques of these bikes.

No critique here, I love these kinds of builds that push the envelope a bit. Or that are built for a really specific purpose. Like you have clearly done here.
I guess my comment above (and maybe @wake’s comment as well) comes from a more “traditional” race oriented mindset. Bikepacking and ultra racing are obviously completly different beasts!

For me personally, and the riding I do locally, a gravel bike with suspension doesn’t really make sense, because you’re either on double track or really smooth singletrack that doesn’t warrant suspension. Or you are on singletrack where you just prefer a mountainbike.
The reason I chose a drop bar MTB for my gravel riding is 100% due to my belief that bigger tires are faster for almost all off-road riding, and i wanted tot fit up to 2.35" MTB tires (Thunder Burts at the moment).

This just underlines the fact that there is never one setup that is best. For me, playing around with bike setup is almost as big of a hobby then riding my bike

[jn92]

hi crew. I’m in the process of getting the parts to rebuild my hardtail frame into a ‘monstergravel’ or drop bar mtb. I have a Fox 32 SC that I’m considering lowering the travel from 100 to 80mm to get another degree out of the steering- and seatangle. Anyone did this or considered this? Apart form the lower BB is there any other downside to a change like that? Shouldn’t be too drastic of a geo change imho, but maybe I’m missing something?

[wake]

@jn92

I have a Fox 32 SC that I’m considering lowering the travel from 100 to 80mm to get another degree out of the steering- and seatangle.

It’s probably fine. The other impacts (you already mentioned BB) are:

1. Longer reach
2. Lower stack (I think each changes by 12-14 mm or so?)
3. Shorter wheelbase (maybe 10mm? Not sure)
4. Front wheel is slightly closer to the BB (probably the same distance as the wheelbase shortens), so more likelihood of toe overlap and less ability to run a bottle cage under the downtube.