Are there any benefits to short Z2 workouts?

@mcneese.chad has got a great shared Google spreadsheet for calculating your HR zones.

Doesn’t that still require a test for LTHR though?

Yes. Just do a 30 min time trial and calculate from there. Job done.

Source:

To find your LTHR do a 30-minute time trial all by yourself (no training partners and not in a race). Again, it should be done as if it was a race for the entire 30 minutes . But at 10 minutes into the test, click the lap button on your heart rate monitor. When done, look to see what your average heart rate was for the last 20 minutes. That number is an approximation of your LTHR.

I have it using LTHR on one model, and Max HR on the other.

You can swag both of them to get a rough idea of your zones.

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Having listened to the podcast do Z2 runs do the same thing?

Let’s have a separate thread for running, please.

Right, that’s my point though. It requires an additional testing protocol that you should repeat every 4-6 weeks and that you would have to make space in your training plan for. For steady-state athletes that might be easy, but for short-power athletes there are less opportunities for swapping in regular 30 minute TTs. :slight_smile:

It’s off topic, but many people get very close to their max HR in the Ramp test. You could start with that, add a few beats for good measure, and call that your max. LTHR is a tougher find.

I’m sure you’ll be fine testing less frequently than that.

Doing a 30 min test every couple of months doesn’t seem like a big issue to me. Depends how important using HR data is to you really.

For me, I’d much rather do my recovery workouts to HR. My performance and consistency has improved since I’ve started doing so anyway.

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probably doesn’t really need a separate thread as you should be able to apply all of Chad’s responses to running. The amount of data that runners have doing 1 hour and less z2 runs is part of the reason I felt the way I did. Many running coaches suggest shorter, more frequent runs to deal with the impact of running, yet there does not seem to be any sort of detrimental effect on their fitness.

As far as testing THR HR, you’d probably only need to test that once a year at most, maybe more as you get fitter and have better time to exhaustion, but still relatively the same. In the 10 years since I’ve been paying attention and tracking HR, my max HR has only come down 3-5 beats and threshold HR relatively the same.

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@anthonylane That is true, and of course you get MORE benefits the more you do. That’s not to say that shorter sessions at Z2 aren’t useful. I completely disagree that the polarised model is a waste of time. It is for SOME athletes, but for others it’s necessary. It is completely dependent on the individual’s profile and their goals.

Coming back to the original question, what we’re after is volume over time. We’re not looking for one-off massive trainign days or weeks, but consistently high (appropriately) workloads over years. A 45 minute Z2-workout done on any given day may not be worth squat, but if you do it twice a week every week of the year that’s 78 more training hours in the year. That DOES make a big difference.

Also, although the downstream effects of low- and high-intensity exercise are more or less the same (since both end up triggering the same master signalling switch), they do so in different manners (high-intensity playing the AMP-switch and low intensity the Calcium-switch), so neglecting to do the endurance work may lead to you leaving a lot of untapped potential on the table.

1 h @ Z2 is absolutely enough to trigger that switch, which also means that it becomes a stimulus for improved fat oxidation.

100% agree with what you’re saying about TSS though! But that’s what I said, or tried to say in my initial reply as well. The more I learn the more I start to think that TSS is massively oversubscribed and downright misleading oftentimes.

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No bike and Some intensity work but shorter

Great perspectives. In addition to TSS being oversubscribed, I think FTP may be also (heresy!) - in that FTP does not really capture how your body generates energy (the example of the diesel vs all rounder from another post of yours).

I could skew my training to be Sweet Spot and above, and I’m sure I could boost my FTP. But would that be the best approach to train for a long event like Leadville? Add to this that my history as an athlete has differentially emphasized fast twitch explosive speed (rugby).

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What’s interesting to me… is that even though I don’t do Z2 work as much as I used to, my early days of really focusing on z2 efforts seems to have a lasting effect. Since I didn’t get a power meter until late in the game, I did all of my workouts by HR for my first 6-7 years. I don’t know if I’ve always had a higher fractional utilization or if it was trained. What I do know though is that since starting TR, raising FTP through sweetspot, threshold and VO2 work my power at z2 HR (lets say 125) has stayed the same percent of FTP or roughly 70-75% of threshold. Since joining TR, I’ve only trained on the bike 4-5 hours/week, with 1-3 hours/week of that being Z2, depending on the goal of the week.

So according to the article on ‘No Go Zones’ the the popular 15/15, 30/30, and 60/60 second hard/easy VO2 workouts are useless?

I started on TR last year and began with the SSBHV plan. I felt okay after week 5 of HV1 so I skipped the recovery week and went in HV2.

:scream::scream::scream:

Are you CRAZY?!?

Don’t you know that’s one of the Ten Commandments of TR – Thou shall not skipeth recovery weeks!

:laughing:

I’m done SSBHV2 and am now in R&R week.

I’m replacing the planned Z2 workouts with shorter SS workouts.

For example, instead of Brasstown (90min/70TSS/.68IF), I’ll do a 60min SS workout (30minSS/60TSS/.78IF).
Basically swapping intensity for stress (and time).

When you say flush out the lactic acidosis - this is a misnomer - approx 1 hr after your last session muscle lactate returns to baseline - z2 sessions are good sessions at any duration as long as more than 40’ - not every session should be a high volume or high intensity session - I.e breakthrough session - sure way to become stale

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Is there any benefit to these?
I’m reading so many conflicting opinions on these types of workouts from them being junk miles, not long enough to have any use, some say they increase your aerobic base, and several other opinions.

I’ve been following SSLV plan and was typically mixing in a weekend ride or a 40k gravel ride in addition to the 3 workouts. With us being on lockdown in Canada I’ve been adding in a couple zwift rides to break up the boredom of being home, sticking in Z2 throughout but only doing an hour. I’m purposely not going any harder to mess up my actual workouts.
These rides are a good mental break for me, but training wise are they useful at all?