Alan Couzens - 1/hr rides are not enough to improve unless coming off the couch

:+1: Sometimes I put words in my coaches mouth, and if I did right now, that is one thing I think he would say.

Depends on what you consider a success. I’m not winning races, or genetically gifted like some of the riders around here (mid 45-ish vo2max versus 58-60 of the podium guys my age).

However I consider myself successful in this sense… started road cycling in 2016.

Self-coached I trained hard using basic principles and got to 275-280W ftp at fifty five, about 15 months after getting a road bike. Averaged 6 hours/week with a lot of commuting double days. Then about 2 years dropping to 5.5 hours/week and doing more structure, fitness dropped 10% and was absolutely slower on group rides/races. Reviewed the science, and came to the conclusion my issue was more about training consistency and frequency, and that I needed to slowly drive up hours. So I hired a coach in 2020 to help me figure it out. And this past year nearly returned to my fitness of 2017 on 7.4 hours/week average for the season.

Below is a visualization of the training of the 16-17 season, my ā€œCogganā€ inspired season of 2016-2017 (mid August start/end), where I pushed FTP up to 275-280W:

That season averaged 6 hours/week.

The season that just ended (a week ago), I also pushed FTP up to 275-280W using very different training:

On 7.4 hours/week and from the vertical lines in the graph you can see a bit more consistency and frequency.

At sixty-one, I’m going to claim that is both a success and age defying :joy: ok, ok, forget the age defying clearly with a training age of 8 there is still some low hanging fitness fruit (but not too low).

There are some dramatic differences to what I was doing back then versus the season that just ended. Look at the sheer number of red IF >= 0.9 rides from that earlier season. The morning rides were ā€œride around FTPā€ and at least one ~60-sec full gas effort. But even when I did a longer ~75-90 commute home (plus Wed group ride), those were mostly a high/red IF and included lot of long hard pushes around FTP.

This past year was built on more consistency of rides with 100-150 TSS (yellow lines), mostly pushing steady-ish 0.7 IF (orange triangles). And sprinkling intensity into 2-3 rides/week. Lower CTL and how long I could reliably push ftp. But my overall health and quality of life improved significantly (lower RHR, lower HRV, not falling asleep at 8pm, etc.).

Regarding ā€œhow low should I go on endurance ridesā€ this is what worked for me (not you, me)… The endurance rides were generally 2 hours and took focus to do a negative split and the last third of the ride I’d be pushing 75% FTP for an overall IF around 0.7. Two hours doing that, consistently during the week, was hard enough to put real demands on my recovery. All credit to my coach for pushing me to figure it out, and find that tipping point where I could mostly do 2+ hour rides during the week (66-79% target range for my endurance workouts). I’d only drop below 65% ftp at the end of the ride to get some bonus volume, or on the weekends if I was tired from the mid-week training.

Again I consider that a personal success, and to summarize I’ll borrow words posted by @oldandfast and adding my own:

  • consistency and frequency are first order of business, don’t do anything that prevents you from consistently training over the next week or two, riding 4-5 days/week, and keep that rolling
  • progressively push up overall capacity to do work
  • creatively sprinkle in intensity on 2-3 rides/week
  • for performance really work on challenging ā€˜the floor’ of the endurance rides (and negative splitting them)
  • full recovery weeks are only needed after an intense build cycle, and generally avoided throughout the year

Thats what I’ve learned from working with my coach. Hope that helps someone.

Pretty awesome. Looks like you’re doing dang well. One thing I never have kept track of is CTL. And makes sense to back off of the 1.0 intensity rides while also getting the 100 plus TSS rides in consistently.

thanks, after a month off my ftp is around 180W. Off the couch a little lower, maybe 160W :man_shrugging: Pushing ftp up almost 100w takes a lot of work, for me. Thats one personal definition of success.

Knowing Alan’s persona on Twitter and reading the tweets quoted in this thread is all I need to not pay him any mind whatsoever.

Interesting structure. I have some questions about it.
Where in the season have you put in this structure? Base, Build, Race prep? And for how long?
In another thread you mentioned that it took 6wks to ice the cake. I suppose these 6wks included race specific sessions!? Or are these already covered in the Sa, Su sessions?

I guess maybe the question is ā€œDoes greater stimulus for adaptation lead to more adaptation?ā€.

Like I can go to the gas station and hold that pump lever down for hours but everything after the first 3 minutes is just going to leave me with wet shoes and no more gas in the tank. You can add as much stimulus as you want, but if that stimulus is not the rate limiter then more doesn’t equal more.

Obviously going from sitting on the bike stationary to pedaling 100W is going to give more adaptation, same if you go up to 150W (just maybe a little less), same up to 200W (maybe a little less), etc. At what point do you hit the point where you keep stimulating more and more but aren’t getting any more adaptation?

Everyone’s ā€œceilingā€ is different, determined by individual genetics (and only altered by PEDs).

Of course the ceiling lifts with training.

I’m a devoted listener to the Empirical Cycling podcast and Kolie seems to get more watts out of elites with a combination of high volume endurance (20-30 hours per week) and his hard start VO2max training blocks. And he prescribes threshold in there building out TTE.

The gist of all of his VO2max episodes is that picking a percentage of FTP off of a zone chart is not sufficient. VO2 intervals need to be max not 106% or 110% or whatever was chosen.

My quandary is that I don’t want to be on a bike 20+ hours a week and I’ve tried his VO2max workouts and they crushed me and left me feeling like I had the flu for a few days. :slight_smile:

I’m curious how many amateurs do that much volume ever.

It’s possible I hit 20 hours/week of workouts in my triathlon days but I don’t know that I did.

How many? Enough in my local Strava feed to convince me its a real thing.

A late 50s guy:

Earlier twenties working on becoming a Cat1:

she is slaying it week in, week out:

This one is late 20s or early 30s, her husband races:

Late 50s:

Just a quick sample from looking at the Top 10 from last week in our club feed…

31+ hours for the number 1, dropping down to ~10 hours when you get the #10 on that list.

My club mate won the Tour of the Gila masters category a few years ago. He was doing 15-25 hours per and he did altitude training (not to hard to do in NM). I’ve just never been that dedicated or determined in cycling. :slight_smile:

I raced for around 7 years in the 80s-90s and I never heard of a single cat 3/4 who was riding that much. Of course, not many amateurs actually knew how to train back then. We didn’t even do intervals. We just raced into shape.

Yes, I know Lemond’s book came out in 1987. Friel’s book didn’t come out to 1996 (I think). Nobody I knew in Northern California (a very large and competitive district in the day) was talking about Lemond’s training plan. Maybe a few were doing secret training!

The cat 1 who was on my team was the only one I knew who rode around 25 hours a week in zone 1. We all thought he was crazy back then. Now I know why he was a cat 1!

Yeah. I don’t doubt it’s a thing but it always surprises me.

I’m 52, and just not interested in that volume. I enjoy cycling but I also enjoy not cycling. And the older I get the more off bike work I need to stay comfortable on bike.

But I definitely know a few people who just love churning out the miles and riding with a group. I have one friend who week after week this summer was doing century rides on the weekend.

But I get some people enjoy that much volume and some people have a goal where big volume is required

Do what you love! What I love is being outside and not strapped to a chair staring at a computer screen. Remember the old days before mobile phones? A lot of people watching up to 3 hours of network TV a night, probably averaging out to around 15 hours a week. Not for me…

Did cycling really not have structured training back then? Swimming, running, etc. all had interval training for decades… The 70s were known for high mileage (even high schoolers were doing 80-100 mile weeks). There was a shift to low mileage and high intensity in the 90s (that pretty much ruined American Distance running) but it is crazy to me how far behind cycling was.

Being older I recall doing LSD rides at the beginning of training season then moving on to Hill Repeats and Fartlek ( telephone pole to telephone pole sprints. Then came the CatEye cycling computer. ………

I’m sure they existed but it didn’t seem to exist in cat 3/4 in my super competitive district. Nobody was talking about them like they do now. I recall reading about intervals in bike magazines. I even tried a few but there was no talk of a progression or periodization. Back then there were no coaching services for amateurs that I ever heard of. I assumed you got all that at the elite level. Even cat 1/2s I knew didn’t have coaches.

Like I said, Lemond’s book came out in 1987 and it contained Guimard’s and Koechli’s training plan. But nobody I knew every said they were following a plan. Any plan.

I think running, at least at the elite level, was way farther along than cycling.

I swam too as a kid in the 80s and all we did was interval sets. I’m not sure there was any personalization though. They just had us for a summer so they really couldn’t do base-build-peak.

There was a good episode of Colby Pierce’s podcast with Jonathan Vaughters. They had this story about how they got a compuserve account so they could be coached by this old school dutch guy they heard about.

(Replying to no one in particular,)

I started racing in 1975. 400 mi/wk was the standard for any aspiring rider (regardless of age or category). What wasn’t the norm was any structured intensity, at least aside from the usual city limit or stop ahead sign sprint. Coming from a running background, I was the only one amongst my peers who did any sort of regular interval training. It took probably a decade or so before others seemed to catch on/up. Earliest popular advocate of structured intervals that I encountered was Eddie Borysewicz in the mid 1980s or so.

Maybe some will find it interesting

The conclusion for the time crunched: Everything works (just maybe not everything for everybody) :slight_smile:
Most generic advice: Run a lot of miles, some faster than your race pace, rest once in a while

I’ve been doing 20+ hours over the past 4 months. My highest month was 29 hours and averaged around 22 hours, hitting back to back weeks of TSS over 1,000. My conclusion, volume is king. To note, I’m 47, full time job, married and have 3 teenage children.

That is seriously impressive. :fire: