Good questions…yes I am using the same bike, pedals, shoes and saddle. The bike is level.
-
Sure, ignoring bike axles for a moment: Saddle angle can be what it needs to be and some nose up or down (within reason) can be totally fine inside and/or outside.
-
Despite mentioning my concept on bike angle relative to saddle comfort, the saddle angle was not specifically the focus. I am talking about the bike axle heights being matched or the front higher.
- Precisely why I start with questions and an attempt to step way back to look at ALL the possible differences. Some delta like that would just about be necessary in order to account for the saddle height change you mentioned. It’s major and means there are one or more things starkly different if they both “feel good”.
- Yup, the many changes in ride feel from flywheel inertia vs outside, fixed vs motion and others can all lead to a difference in actual rider pedaling motion.
Keep us informed on what you find.
2 Likes
Chad’s already covered a lot of good points there.
A picture of the soles of your shoes showing the cleat position might be interesting.
Also, can you beg, borrow or steal a power meter if you’ve not already got one, and just see what differences some of the metrics such as smoothness, effectiveness and phase show, indoors vs outdoors? It might illustrate the mashing vs spinning that you mention.
I’m not familiar with how short you can go with the Look crank arms, but I’m envisioning the type that has a small rotatable “chip” in the pedal portion that allows you to change the length… It might be worth trying to go even shorter. In the last several years, its become pretty common for even taller riders to start moving to shorter crank arms. 165mm isn’t out of the norm at all, even amongst the pro ranks. The only misconceptions of leverage and power with longer arms is a bit debunked at this point.
Its not uncommon for us to have different length legs or to be a bit asymmetrical, and with that, your body can pretty quickly adapt to most situations. A saddle sore on one side is almost always telling of something other than a true saddle fit issue. Perhaps it might be worth playing with your cleat position in addition to the shim you mentioned. For instance, my left foot is a few mm’s longer than my right(with/due to a lower arch) and as such, I run that cleat a few mm’s further forward to get the same placement over the spindle. If I’ve got my cleats setup identical between both shoes, I feel a real shortcoming at the bottom of my stroke, so it’s not crazy to think that having a different effective lever length at the top of your stroke, could result in one leg forcing your hip into an angle more extreme than the other. Setback is worth looking at as well. The further forward you run your saddle, the easier it is to get the pedal stroke over the top(see TT bike’s steep seat tube angles).
The other obvious get could be with the amount of stack of your bars. Similarly to the “newer” ideas regarding crank length, a lower front end isn’t always the fastest, and can force your hip angle closed if you’re back is “too flat”.
1 Like
Hi all,
I was wondering if I could get some free advice here. I’m probably a bike fitters worst nightmare after all of the changes I’ve made! I decided to move from 175mm cranks to 170mm. This was recommended to me by a fitter ~9 months ago, during a fitting session, to get more aero and pedal further through corners in crits.
I had no real comfort issues before the fit, just the occasional saddle sore on longer rides (4+hrs). For Christmas, I did the following to my bike:
- Went from 175mm to 170mm cranks
- Changed shoes from Fizik to Bont (cleats placed as far rearward as possible)
- Saddle Changed from Fizik Antares to Spec Power Mirror (I’m still in the 30 day return window. So far I think I prefer the long skinny Fizik saddle)
- Lowered front end ~10mm
I tried lining up the short nose saddle offset from where the Fizik saddle was, but it would have to be slammed back. It’s ~1/2 further forward than it theoretically should be.
My Problem: My lower back has been bothering me quite a bit. I’ve never had back issues before, so it’s a bit troubling. I would say it’s mainly on one side (my left side, coincidentally the side I typically get saddle sore) and only really bothers me at threshold and above power levels.
Can anyone provide me any recomendations? My seat is much lower now than before (although my cleats are further back on these new shoes). Again my saddle is a little further forward, but I’m worried moving it back will cause more back issues. Attached are two videos. My fit before all of the changes, and my fit currently.
I know I’ve gained a little winter weight between the month these videos were shot. Go easy on me!!
I’m 6’4 and 220lb if that’s at all relevant.
Thank you for the help!!!
Lots to digest here, but a quick question. Did you change your saddle height when you changed cranks?
Correct. Saddle to BB before cranks was 32.5" (measured to center of seat right where the wings flare out).
Current saddle to BB is at 32" with the shorter cranks.
Ok, assuming that your saddle height was “right” before the crank change, the common change would be to raise your saddle by the same change in shorter crank. Going down 5mm in crank arm length would typically mean raising saddle 5mm to match.
What you just outlined is a shorter final saddle height by 0.5" [12mm]. So I am confused to be honest, and would need more info to understand your changes differently from the usual changes i mentioned.
Did you really mean to shorten your saddle height vs the prior setup and cranks?
Chad, thanks for helping me try to figure this out. I realize I’ve done a poor job explaining the order of operations to my changes.
After I put the shorter cranks on, I did move my seat up. Unfortunately I did not measure this, but if memory serves me right it could have been as much as 10mm. I went out for a couple 3hr rides and this is when my back started to really give me issues and pain.
My thought was maybe my seat height was already too high to begin with originally. With this in mind, I lowered the seat to below its original height. I also figured having my cleats further back wouldn’t let me “toe” the pedals as much, lowering my “effective” leg length if you will.
Could a seat that’s too low be causing me lower back pain?
My seat set-back is further forward as well. I know this is against conventional wisdom when shortening cranks, but I had wondered if moving my seat forward would help my lower back. I never did attempt riding with my seat set back at its original position, or even further rearward. Could a seat too forward cause my back issue?
Thanks!!
I have really only started, but figured I’d share a quick comparison I am building.
- Pre on the left, Post on the right:
Key points of interest for me with this, is the change in back shape. The 3 lines on the left, are duplicated exactly for size and angle on the right. You can see the delta in drop, but also the shape change as a result of the bar drop and various saddle changes. It seems lower and likely more “curved”. At a quick analysis, this could be related to your discomfort if you are bending too much, or into an unnatural shape for your body.
That is followed by the difference in your pedal stroke in motion. You had a notable toe point in the Pre, that largely disappears in the Post. This makes sense considering you have lowered your saddle between these. I need to watch the videos closer to get more from them, but from a before/after standpoint, this makes sense. Not sure if one is better than the other at this time.
More to come over my lunch break, but maybe this can stimulate some thoughts and discussion?
I would also note that @mvisio is not sitting on the same saddle location in the two shots. In the post shot, he is significantly further forward (as evidenced by the saddle being visible). I know he switched his saddle…I think we need to know how he positioned his Power saddle vs. the previous Fizik. If he kept the same nose position relative to the BB, then he needs to move the saddle back 2-3cm.
And while I know I will sound like a broken record, but IMO he really needs to rotate his hips forward…he is rotated very far back onto his sit bones, resulting in the upright and hunched back position (and very un-aerodynamic).
1 Like
Awesome point on the saddle. I hadn’t picked that up yet, but it is SUPER notable.
ETA: just now on a 2nd look, are we seeing a saddle bag on the right vs not having one on the left??? Looking at the bike frame peeking from behind his right knee, seems that he is pretty close to the same fore-aft position (noting the potential for saddle height to impact this look as well, so it’s not perfect comparison).
It adds to (or helps explain?) what looks like a more “scrunched” position in the Post/Right. Just looks like he is bending too much to get between the saddle and lower bars. It also aligns with your comment on hip rotation. He seems a bit more upright at the pelvis than might be right, and could lead to excess tension in the lower back (issue of interest).
An interesting test would be to see if he is simply “forward” on the saddle or if he can actually get back to properly “cover” the saddle without changing anything. Would just about force more pelvis rotation and open the reach side of the triangle here. Curious to see what his back would do.
But if he is already “locked” in position on the new saddle, that may not be an option without moving it rearward in the rails.
1 Like
Hi All,
Just about to start my noon class but will quickly answer some of these questions! That is a saddle bag in the post-change position. I need to read about how to rotate my hips more on the bike…not really sure how to achieve this. Happy to hop on the trainer when I get home and adjust as much as you all want here in a few hours!
Appreciate all of the helpful feedback. This is great.
- My quick thought on “teaching” this is to think about getting your belly button closer to the bars. you are aiming to “straighten” your lower back as a result of your pelvis (hips sitting on the saddle) rolls forward.
Super hack example:
@mcneese.chad, my copy of Dartfish is on a pc that’s just gone kaput otherwise, I’d mock it up and take a look. The changes in the video, to me, seem to be around the pelvis angle and neck.
Perhaps you can compare the two images when the right leg is horizontal at 3 o clock, by adding a vertical line down from the front of the knee to consider KOPS. Not because it will show right or wrong but because it will highlight a fore and aft shift relative to the pedal axle. Also, a line straight along the seat tube from the bottom bracket to see if it bisects the greater trochanter. Again this will highlight any fore and aft shift.
Another consideration @mvisio might be whether you have any perceived increase in weight/pressure in the hands?
Rotating hips is interesting. If someone is having to be ‘taught’ how to do this and thus holding themselves in an unnatural position won’t this lead to muscles being used for postural stability rather than phasically driving and thus reduce performance?
Here is a screen shot of KOPS with some lines to hopefully highlight any fore/aft changes. I think I’m slightly further forward with my current setup vs. original. I do feel slightly more pressure on hands, which would support that.
I’ll try bumping my seat back 5mm and attempt to roll my hips forward tonight. I just hopped on the bike and felt like my seat would need to come up for me to be able to roll my hips forward. With my hips forward at the current seat height, I dont feel flexible enough (almost as if my knees are crowded out by my body if that makes any sense)….So I may also adjust my seat upward as well.
Will post a new clip this evening, with hopeful positive results!
Thanks again everyone
1 Like
- That can be the source, but you also dropped the bars which is the more common reason to feel more weight on your hands.
Alright everyone. Since moving my seat up also moves it back a hair, the only change I made in this fit iteration (dubbed fit #3) was:
- Seat raised 7mm (started at 10mm, felt like too much)
- Attempted to roll hips forward as much as I could
Results : Rolling my hips forward seemed to help a lot with my lower back pain. It’s still there, but I think that’s a factor of “riding through the pain” for the last 10 days or so.
I have 4 questions:
At the top of my pedal stroke, I feel tightness by my groin/hip. Is there a good stretch or fit change I can do to help alleviate this?
To roll my hips forward I have to sit on the very nose of my specialized power seat. This puts a lot of pressure on the perineum (I believe)…basically a lot of pressure on what feels like soft tissue. I can handle it for an hour on the trainer but can’t imagine this on a 4 hour ride. My saddle is nose-down 3*. Would setting it level help with this? Any other suggestions?
Because I’m sitting on the nose to roll my hips forward, I feel a hair far forward in general. Oddly enough I felt less quad reliant today than i did in fit #2. Should I move my saddle further aft?
Maintaining this hips forward position actually required a lot of concentration, and at the end of my workout I had a tendency to let myself get a little rounded and sloppy. Do I just need to keep practicing this position and eventually will do it instinctually?
Sorry for the question bomb. Happy to be getting somewhere!
1 Like
So just to be clear about how you should sit on a Power (or any sub-nosed) saddle….you basically want to sit so your “dangly down” parts are…well, you know…dangling down in front of the saddle.
On a traditional saddle, they would be compressed but since a Power saddle is designed to be shorter in the front (hence the reason the nose should be 2-3cm further back than you previous saddle nose), your gentle bits are in front of the saddle nose.
Rotating your hips properly will place more pressure on the perineum than anchoring your sit bones bower….it may take a bit for you to adjust to this and develop some “taint toughness”, but you will adapt.
Your hip rotation does look better in the image above. I’d like to see even more, but you are a tall guy and it is really hard for guys your size to get enough stretch on mass-produced bikes.
7 & 10 mm are big jumps. Really you should be moving 1 variable, 2-3 mm at a time and noting the difference. Start with height. For height changes, consider better or worse ease and smoothness of pedalling. For saddle fore and aft, consider more or less core engagement when balancing with hands off the bar.
After noting the changes from the first movement, try another movement of the same variable, in the same direction, and compare that to the previous one. Has it made things better or worse? Then try it again and compare it to the previous position. If it keeps getting better, chances are the movement is heading the right way, and if worse vice versa. These tests (if starting lower) can go through a range where it gets better, then there’s no difference (your fit window), and then it gets worse. You’re looking to get within the can’t tell the difference range.
From the KOPS and seat tube pictures we seem to have established that you’re further forward. As @mcneese.chad says, either the reduced bar height or saddle movement forward (or both) could have contributed to the increased hand pressure. I’d put the bar height back to the original height (as your shoulders look rounded in the lower position), establish saddle position first, as described above and then try the drop again and see what happens to hand pressure when you remove the spacer again.
Kneeling lunges. Fit changes as described above, shorter cranks. If it wasn’t there before it would probably be the fit changes. Join a yoga class, it’ll be one of the best things you do for life in general as you age.
Sure experiment with the tilt but perhaps your original saddle was a better fit for you?
You’re looking for a nice balance between quads and hams. Going back with the saddle will engage the hams.
Get the fit right and this shouldn’t feel like an effort.
HTH
1 Like