My problems with progression levels

[patrickhill]

I think SS is borderline. I almost said below SS. Some of us are pushing the limits with SS, while some of us don’t want to.

[rocourteau]

Indeed, I mostly disregard PLs for endurance - I pick workouts that are not too boring, regardless of PL.

[WindWarrior]

@voldemort

First, a disclaimer. I think AT is an improvement from the previous training plans.

I agree.

@voldemort

Despite taking a break from my TR plan, I intend to start using it again in the coming weeks. These issues are only with the marketing of PLs.

Well I’m not sure about the exact marketing of PLs, but along with AT and WLs they support the top-level message:

Randomly picking out quotes…

@hubcyclist

Endurance is probably the least useful of progression levels. Dont overthink it. Do easier workouts if you feel like it, do higher endurance if you feel like it. Any cyclist with training is likely at least a 7 or 8 endurance wise

Which is odd, and goes against the top-level marketing message.

@voldemort

Let me give another example. Suppose TR just started everyone at 100 FTP without testing. Then, at my first ramp test 6 weeks in My new ftp is 220. Did I improve or not? Well, if my FTP was 240 to start then no; I didn’t. Saying I am fitter because my FTP went from 100-220 is incorrect.

PLs aren’t fitness, they reflect the highest TR difficulty rating (WL) of a recently completed workout.

@mrpedro

When you are starting again it takes a few rides for PLs to tune in. You can speed it up by manually selecting harder workouts. But until the PLs are tuned in to your level, you can not see the changes as an improvement.

The right workout, once the athlete and AT get in sync.

@rocourteau

There’s a reason there used to be tons of threads here about “VO2Max (or SS, or threshold, or whatever) workouts increase in difficulty too fast (or too slow), can you recommend an easier (harder) progression?”, and that those threads have mostly disappeared. That is what AT does though PLs.

Right, and that is in agreement with that top-level marketing message.

[brenth]

@mcneese.chad

For reference, this is what TR has at the 10 Endurance level . I suspect some riders could knock that out at whatever their current FTP is, but I think it would be hard to a stretch for some.

I have yet to ride 6 hours…and I really dont want to.

[T_Field]

I did lot’s of 6 hr rides during my cross country trip last summer. As TR isn’t including any outside rides, no credit at all. As far as PL levels go,
I turned off AT when starting my own “polarized plan”. I still get PL levels though. I’m currently trying to progress through VO2 workouts recommended by Joe Friel in his podcast with his son. 5 x 2 min at 120% of FTP with 90 sec of rest. I have yet to get through the second set without backpedalling and even though I have AT turned off, it gives me a PL of 7 for that workout.

[gtnash]

I took a trainerroad break, and when I returned progression levels were reset. Yes, taking outside perf into account could change this but I hear they are working on it.

What I did that worked quite well, just did alternate workouts from planned ones, and went straight to “breakthrough”. Levels were reasonable in a week or so.

[RobtL]

Here’s the official blurb. I’ve highlighted the bit that I personally find important.

" Progression Levels are a dynamic, real-time representation of your fitness and ability to express your FTP across each [training zone](https://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005942786-Understanding-Power-Zones). They are measured on a scale from 1-10 to track your progress. "

1. My ftp stays the same but I’m able progress from level 4.8 to 5.3 in threshold workouts. The line moves up and my fitness has improved.

2. By some miracle my ftp increases by 10 or 12 watts but I find I’m initially struggling at the 5.3 level. I have to dial it back a bit. The line moves back but my fitness has still improved.

[WindWarrior]

@RobtL

" Progression Levels are a dynamic, real-time representation of your fitness and **ability to express your FTP across each training zone. They are measured on a scale from 1-10 to track your progress. "

that first paragraph in the Progression Levels support article is a mouthful of big words!

What makes PLs confusing as a “representation of your fitness” is they are:

• based on achievement of workout difficulty ratings
• relative to training
• on a sliding scale where fitness increases can result in TR/AT decreasing your PLs

That ‘representation’ is very different from underlying fitness metrics like increases to 5-sec or 10-min power or 30-min power. If I’m targeting a 4-minute climb, and I know my previous best required a power of 320W, what does having a VO2max PL of 5.7 tell me?

IMHO PLs are less about fitness and more about what TR wrote in the second and third paragraphs:

As you complete rides, Adaptive Training analyzes and adjusts these levels based on the relative difficulty of your workouts in each zone, as well as how successful you were in completing them.

Progression Levels can help you select workouts that are appropriate for your current capabilities. They also guide Adaptive Training to make more specific plan adjustments based on your individual performance.

[RobtL]

@WindWarrior

What makes PLs confusing as a “representation of your fitness” is they are:

• based on achievement of workout difficulty ratings
• relative to training
• on a sliding scale where fitness increases can result in TR/AT decreasing your PLs

Absolutely.

[mailman]

Your point is valid, but if you knew your FTP and VO2 PL at the point of your 320W PB you’d be able to compare thehe current PL to see.

It’s obviously a different type of metric than direct time vs power markers, but there’s still use there.

[AlphaDogCycling]

@patrickhill

Assigning PLs to the lower intensities gives the false impression that the goal is to move those higher, when often (not always) the goal is just to ride at an appropriate level of intensity in those zones

Below threshold, PLs really correlate to time in zone, not intensity. So why don’t you think having an understanding of how much TiZ you can do at Sweet Spot is useful? As an example

[patrickhill]

It totally works fine for those of us who are willing able to put in those long efforts, and want to see those durations extend. However, the vast majority of TR users are in plans like that require us to work way below our max duration abilities. So for most users, your endurance PL, for example, is more of an indicator of how easy your easy rides are rather than your max abilities.

For most users, upper zone PLs are more of an indicator for what you can do, while lower PLs are an indicator of what you have done. There’s a disconnect there.

[bobw]

Here’s my current PLs:

Endurance is at 6.3 because that’s the Workout Level of the longest TR workout I’ve done. I actually did the workout outdoors because 2hrs sat at 75% on the trainer ain’t my idea of fun and my ride was about 20mins longer than that scheduled.

Threshold is also at 6.3 because again, that’s the Workout Level of the highest TR Threshold workout I’ve done recently.

Both are reflecting my achievements not my potential within the TR universe - AT will (in fact it has) updated my plan such that my next threshold workout is 6.9. By my understanding, that’s how it works when you achieve what’s been asked of you.

[AlphaDogCycling]

I agree that the endurance PL is messed up, especially as I think it decays much too rapidly if you are actively training, but not doing long TR endurance rides.

I wish TR gave you the ability to back at PL progression over time vs. estimated FTP (once this rolls out) vs. “used” FTP. I think having this would be super useful to plan a season. Questions I would really like to be able to answer:

• How long can I do Sweet Spot blocks (block for me equals 3 weeks on, 1 week of testing & lower volume) at what PL progression, before FTP improvements taper off? Right now, I’ve done 4 blocks, and gotten to be able to do a block which consists of 2x40 with 5 min rest between intervals on back to back days - the 2x40 is realistically the max I can do during the week, as with warmup / cool down these end up being just under 2 hour workouts
• After doing Sweet Spot blocks, how many blocks do I need of something else? Should this be threshold blocks? VO2 max blocks? Endurance?

So many questions

[AlphaDogCycling]

It’s also about muscular endurance and theoretically similar adaptions to threshold intervals, but easier to recover from.

[spidermonkey]

I think a lot of this conversation is missing the point. I believe @voldemort is, in large part, bringing up the communication of PLs rather than just the PLs themselves. TrainerRoad could definitely do better at explaining what their resources offer users, and what the possible limitations are.

[bobw]

@spidermonkey

TrainerRoad could definitely do better at explaining what their resources offer users, and what the possible limitations are.

Quite possible but IME people just don’t actually read those resources, “you can lead a horse to water…” and all that. There’s a whole swath of articles on the support pages, here’s the top page for Progression Levels - https://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/4404665021595-Progression-Levels I got to that by clicking on the “Support” button on the Calendar page.

[MK_2]

@AlphaDogCycling

I think it decays much too rapidly if you are actively training, but not doing long TR endurance rides

THIS. I agree, I guess it is important to keep the goal, the goal. For example, in my Build Phase my focus is less on endurance rides.

[mcneese.chad]

That and they typicly double up with sharing via the TR Blog and link from places like TR’s FB account, as well as emails to users with that turned on.

They do a better job documenting than many other training services.

[spidermonkey]

I agree with that, the forum and podcast are wonderful ways TR discusses what they offer. I don’t think that excuses saying false statements though, like that PLs going up indicates the rider is getting faster… especially when making riders faster is TR’s entire mission. TR is a business, and most businesses communicate positively about what they offer without explaining the limitations.

There are other instances of this, not just power levels.