My own experience with TR and why I quit

I think we’re being misrepresented in some of the information you’re sharing about what we’ve said as a company and through your interactions with TR.

I don’t want to take away from you feeling let down with your experience with TR, which I’m really bummed to hear about. :frowning:

Here’s how I think we’re being misrepresented:

  • Outside Workouts can’t provide the same training benefit as indoor workouts
  • Adaptive Training can’t capture Outside Workouts
  • TR support monitored your performance to keep you on track

Here are some official statements from us on these points:

We believe Outside Workouts can provide the same training stimulus as indoor workouts.
There are challenges to training outside that can impact your ability to successfully complete the workout. I don’t think it’s fair to say we’re being dishonest about the efficacy of Outside Workouts when we also explain there are challenges to overcome to do them right.

We could do a better job of providing more education around this in the product. We understand not everyone is listening to the podcast or reading other resources to get that info, and we don’t expect that either.

Acknowledging the challenges inherent to Outside Workouts, we still believe it is possible to execute workouts while adhering to the prescription. It’s up to the athlete to choose the training context they feel will give them the best results.

Adaptive Training is limited in Outside Workout analysis
For now, Adaptive Training only adapts cycling workouts based on data it gets from other cycling workouts.

As of now, Adaptive Training’s analysis for indoor workouts is more robust than for Outside Workouts. Rather than simply ignoring Outside Workouts, Adaptive Training currently uses post workout surveys to understand if you completed the workout or not, and how difficult it was for you, in order to fine-tune your adaptations.

When asked, “How did this workout feel?”, your survey ratings were usually within the expected range to keep your workouts progressing. This suggests to Adaptive Training that you were able to successfully complete most of the workouts, hence why it typically continued to move you along through your training progression.

Our Support Team aren’t certified cycling coaches
I think it’s misleading to say we were checking your performance. Our Support Team’s role is to help with technical issues with the product and clarifying how things work. We’ll always do our best to help guide athletes in the right direction, but our support agents communicate they are not certified coaches.

Other factors that impacted your success
All of that said, as you noted there were multiple incidents outside of training that likely adversely impacted how your body responded to training, and it sounds like they were pretty significant in nature.

As of now, there are limitations in what Adaptive Training can do to understand the context of your life that surrounds your training. It’s still crucial to listen to your body and be willing to adjust workouts (turn down intensity if inside, or ride at a lower power target if outside, use the Workout Alternates feature, etc.), and even take time off from training when needed.

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Jonathan, I for one certainly appreciate the thought to take the time to, in depth, respond to a post so critical of trainerroad.

That said, I don’t exactly share all of the OPs sentiments, but I certainly share his experiences. Do you/Trainerroad have any specific guidance on WHEN to dial things back? I know this is a complex question, but I know for me, and I assume for a lot of others, “listen to your body” is an unhelpful, unspecific cliche.

For something that, as I’ve learned over the years is a very important part of training, some specific criteria would be extraordinarily helpful.

Heck…look at the evolution of the ‘go hard’ side of things to see how things have progressed. Workouts are prescribed to the single watt. We arent really even using RPE for the recovery side.

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Oh interesting. Especially the bit about wanting to get out of bed or not…I have a pretty wide variance there.

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I’m not certain what you expect Jonathan to say at this point….you have cited several examples of how your body has “told” you need more rest (start with your riding slower) but you admitted you won’t listen to your body.

I’m genuinely confused as to what you expect people to answer at this point.

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Never thought I’d be talking to the Sausage King of Chicago on this forum :wink:

Yeah, “Listen to your body” isn’t all that specific. But I think that’s intentional due to the very wide range with which everybody perceives fatigue, lack of motivation, undernourishment, excess stress, and all of the many other factors that relate to this topic.

IOW, what it may feel like for one person will likely feel very different for another, and giving specific advice can then be misleading when it is being read by thousands in different circumstances.

My personal guidelines:
Rest, if:

  1. I’m feeling sick
  2. I’m feeling extraordinarily tired
  3. I’m injured

Try the first interval or first 20 minutes and be willing to pull the plug, if:

  1. I’m feeling fatigue, but not extraordinarily tired.
  2. I’m not feeling motivated to train
  3. I’m carrying a high level of stress

Please remember these are my personal guidelines. They aren’t TR’s specific criteria, and they may not serve your needs well.

It’s important to note that looking back, I can’t remember a single time when resting ended up hurting my training. However, particularly when I first started training years ago, there are plenty of times where not resting did put me in a hole.

All of that said, we’ve discussed overtraining in a few different podcasts and articles that can be helpful (in addition to what @ChefAcB shared above). Here’s a couple links:

  1. This blog article: Overtraining: Symptoms, Recovery, and Avoidance of Overtraining
  2. At 42:05 in this podcast we discuss it: Overtraining, Cyclist Rider Types, Plateauing, and More – Ask a Cycling Coach 350 - TrainerRoad Blog
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I don’t EXPECT anything. But, this IS a cycling training company, right? I think some info on how to actually balance recovery, and not overtrain, would be helpful, yes?

Thanks Jon. Currently I’m the sausage king on a work trip in Boston though :joy:.

I think that reinforces my current, recently adjusted mindset, that training should be consistently tough, but not painfully so. This is a bit of a mental/emotional evolution for me…

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I think this is where you are going wrong. The vast majority of training should be rather easy (z1/z2). Any threshold training (tempo/SS/ftp) should feel very achievable if the FTP has been set correctly. VO2 training can be very tough but one doesn’t do that much of it.

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I think you missed my point….people have pointed out many such things and you have recognized them….but then literally said “how I feel on a given day doesn’t enter into the equation”.

So if you aren’t listening to your body, than what insights do you expect anyone to provide? The one barometer that is available to you you are literally ignoring.

Even now, after Jonathan gave you a list of guidelines, your subsequent response was

If that is your takeaway, it just reinforces what I said above….you aren’t listening to the advice being provided.

Good luck…and I mean that sincerely. I’m now gonna drop out of this part of the conversation.

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I’ll share my 2 cents, as I’ve kinda been there, in the sense that I also quit, but for a different reason.
The reason why I joined TR was exactly the training load management and I believe it does a great job for that, besides the questionnaire. You have a very nice chart on the top of the calendar page where you can see what you can handle in terms of training stress once you’ve uploaded your training history. For me this was eye-opening. I didn’t pay much attention to total weekly TSS before, would judge it statically, for one single session only, and what I’d usually do was start a training block too hard, too soon and get burned towards the end of it.
Now I have cancelled my subscription, as I simply manage (and this time pay attention) the TSS via intervals.icu. I do have extensive experience with interval training and usually go long&steady, as my specialty is TT, so not much use for the TR workouts there.
My time with TR was extremely helpful in judging beforehand how much load to expect from a session, looking at the duration and intensity of the intervals.
My typical bread and butter in a week are one session of 3x20/ 2x45/ 1x1hr SS, and one session of 2/3x10/15min@ 105% FTP. Besides these two indoor workouts I’ll add one hard 2-3 hours outside ride, one easy outside ride, and a couple of easy spins on the rollers. 3 weeks on, 1 recovery (about 70% duration of the “on” weeks, all endurance rides).
I’ve also set up my intervals.icu to calculate my FTP considering the 30 minutes power, so not much unwanted fluctuations there.
Otherwise, like it’s been said before here, I’ll start the workout and if I don’t feel well after the warm-up I’ll just take the day off and adjust the plan. “Adjust” never means “make up for the missed workout”, but rather go on with whatever was planned beforehand.

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Wait…are you referring to trainerroads plans?? 4 workouts a week on the plan from trainerroad is sweetspot or higher…

I’ve been with TR for years and don’t remember ever seeing this. What plan are you on?

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Mid volume sweet spot base 1.

Tue sweet spot

Wed zone 2

Thurs sweet spot

SAT THRESHOLD/over under

Sun Sweet spot

Every plan I’ve seen is set up like this…wed is the only zone 1/2 day

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Ahhh. So the solution to that is to be on LV and add Z2. This has been discussed into infinity.

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4 workouts at sweet spot or above is what I said

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Yea I’ve heard that a bunch, but it never made any sense for me. Doing that is essentially the same as just dropping the sunday sweet spot ride. The tue/thurs/saturday workouts are identical in low and mid volume.

Sounds like Power was right

Hopefully your eyes have been opened in this thread. It’s for sure a hard lesson to learn for many of us.

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Credit: @empiricalcycling

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does it make sense now? lol

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