Cultural appropriation and open racism in the cycling industry

L39ion uses cultural appropriation for their name also. It is a term used to describe a Roman unit. I assume you reached out to them to condemn their appropriation of that term?

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No, it isnt appropriation because they were never oppressed. Only oppressed people can have their culture appropriated. Doesn’t matter that throughout history every culture has been oppressed and the oppressor.

Right now, basically, if you are a white person you shouldn’t appropriate anyone’s culture. Get it?

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You just said they were never oppressed and that “every culture has been oppressed.” Which is it?

So you’re saying cultural appropriation isn’t wrong, just who you do it to makes it wrong. Boy it must be tough coming up with, abiding by and enforcing all these rules. When do you get time to train? I have a hard enough time with trying to be nice to everyone and get faster.

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I think we agree, my friend. Thats why I liked your post.

I am saying that many people say that white culture, in this example Romans, were never oppressed. So it isnt appropriation. Then I said that they are ignoring the fact that all cultures have been oppressed and have oppressed other cultures.

Sarcasm doesn’t always work well in text.

Meaning that the whole conversation about people appropriating things from other cultures is kind of stupid. Using slurs against people, sure. Being mad that people want to use a historical name or show appreciation of a culture? That is wrong.

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Please see what I wrote earlier

The colonial oppression of indigenous people has repercussions to this day. @FatBoySlim has given plenty of examples of this. Saying ‘all societies have done bad things’ is a cop-out (it’s also empirically wrong) because the context under discussion is the appropriation of and lack of respect for indigenous culture right now.

This doesn’t mean that no one in America can cook lasagne or listen to Blues music or whatever, but it means that when Indigenous people tell us that they find certain things offensive we should pay attention. Especially if we maybe don’t immediately understand their concerns.

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I think what bothers me about this entire line of thinking is that you are classifying me by my race simply because I happen to be born with white skin, means I have to do certain things or take responsibility for what other white people have done. I don’t. I recognize bad things have happened in this world. And typically they were done by the ruling classes of all cultures.

Its isn’t empirically wrong, even if you say so, because wrong is subjective. In any case, I didn’t do it. Most romans were peasants. They had hard lives as well. As did most europeans. Look at the bauernkrieg in germany. Were those white people responsible? Which white people?

We’re all humans. Lets stop trying to divide by race as far as what we are allowed to do or say.

I hate what happened to native americans. I hate what germans did to the jews. I hate what jews are doing to palestinians. And I hate what some muslims did to jews. I hate what the japanese did to the phillipinos. I hate what chinese people are doing to other tribes. I hate what pakistanis do to indians and vice versa.

People have constantly hurt and oppressed other cultures.

Edit to add: What we should all be fighting against is the powers that profit from us fighting each other while they get richer and richer on our blood, sweat, and tears, while we fight over the name of a bike thats just named that way because people think native americans are honorable and tough.

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After 1945 Germans as a state and as a society have taken collective responsibility for the Holocaust. That was the right thing to do, because of the extent to which the population was implicated. I think there are good arguments for colonial nations like the US, UK, France, Belgium and also Germany taking responsibility for their colonial atrocitites or the slave trade.

Yes, it is though. No hunter-gatherer or village society has had the administrative and military means for mass murder and extermination on a scale perpetrated by European nations since the 16th century. Have people everywhere killed each other? Yes. Have people everywhere committed genocide? No. Is it a competition in which you can say this situation wasn’t as bad as another situation so I get a few extra free passes at giving offense? Also no. It would be really helpful to return to the specific issues that @FatBoySlim raised.

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For one, he has raised many issues on different things in this massive thread and I have addressed many of them.

Second, you completely ignored the point about this not being me. I did not do these things.

If your argument is going to be that I still benefitted from them, then so did fatboyslim as he is using a computer to raise his issues.

You are ignoring the point I have made that it is specifically governments turning people against other people that is the main problem here.

And native american tribes were constantly at war. And they made slaves of other tribes. Did the europeans have more technology to do this on a massive scale? Of course. But humans are humans and don’t for a second think native americans would not have used this technology if they had it. In fact, they did use european technology, like horses, and firearms, to go to war against each other.

It is ignorance to ignore history. We cannot gloss over the fact that history has been brutal. Blaming a certain skin color for it wont help anyone.

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I’m sorry, but this is a straw man argument.

The second statement I quoted above reduces the concept of power down to technology access, which is not what we’re discussing here.
What we’re discussing is the multi-generational pattern of oppression by people of a certain background (or who look a certain way) against people who look differently or are from a different background.

Saying that people have power because they have a computer is super reductionist. The more thoughtfully we can all act in this discussion, the more effective it is.

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It is not reductionist at all nor is it a straw man argument.

It was a preemptive argument for someone saying I hold responsibility for what happened to someone of a different skin color because of my skin color. Because people would say I benefitted from this dark time in history. A case could be made that even today’s natives have benefitted from this dark history.

You are justifying racism against me simply for the color of my skin.

Blaming me for oppression of other cultures simply for my skin color is racist.

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I do agree with you that individualising these problems isn’t as helpful as addressing them collectively. There’s no question that the US and Canada have benefited from the exploitation and displacement of native peoples and there’s no question that European nations have benefited from colonialism. Reparations are one way to acknowledge that in a concrete way.

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I have no idea what color your skin is, and I haven’t addressed anything to you or blamed you for anything.
I explained the logical weakness of the straw man argument, that’s all.

Benefiting from the period and being responsible for it are two different things. This conversation seems to make you feel personally attacked (based on what I quoted above), which is not anyone’s intent. I’m sorry you’re feeling so triggered by it, and I hope you can work through that - good luck!

HAHAHA, love the last comment with the fake compassion. Don’t do that brother. We were having a fair conversation until that part. Knock it off.

I am not triggered, I dont need to “work through” anything, so the implication that I am acting out is very disrespectful.

Its like telling a woman to calm down, her period and hormones are making her triggered.

I really do respect and appreciate your points of view, however at times you seem to come off the rails like I do.

I agree you did not do these things. Do you agree that we all have a responsibility to treat all people better, try and make a small difference in this world and try to leave this world a better place then when we leave?

The fact that indigenous people have benefitted from technology is great. However they have never had equal access to technology in the past as they do not today.

" According to an American Indian Policy Institute analysis of federal data, just 67 percent of tribal lands in the continental U.S. have access to broadband internet, with the majority only having access to broadband speeds considered by the Federal Communications Commission to be less than “minimally acceptable.”

Meanwhile, less than half the residents of tribal lands in the continental U.S. actually subscribe to it, largely due to the high costs, the analysis found.

Those figures are far below the percentage of overall rural communities in the U.S. that have access to broadband and broadband that works at minimally acceptable speeds. And because reporting such data in remote areas can be difficult, experts believe the actual numbers for tribal nations are even lower.

In Navajo Nation, where Yazzie and her family live, more than half of the 110 Navajo communities on the land lack broadband access.

Sixty percent of residents residents lack any fixed internet access at all, according to tribal leaders — and broadband speed for the communities that do have it is slow, spotty and expensive. Navajo Nation residents with broadband pay about $44 — or 52 percent — more a month for it compared to average prices across the U.S., and for slower speeds, according to an analysis by New America, a left-leaning policy think tank**.**

There and elsewhere, lack of consistent, reliable broadband hinders not just online school, but access to everything from vital telehealth appointments to filing taxes online, as well as the ability for tribal governments to run smoothly and to make announcements, including crucial ones regarding public health, safety and emergencies."

Horses proven wrong.
https://indiancountrytoday.com/news/yes-world-there-were-horses-in-native-culture-before-the-settlers-came

As well you are jumping to conclusions on your points. Many of indigenous societies were run by woman before settlers arrived. Your comment about constantly at war is an assumption based on savage savages. It is appropriate as me saying that the American people are constantly killing their presidents by shooting them in the head.

Like any land mass that has a restriction of resources and different groups vying for them their will be trade and conflict. This is no different than anywhere else on the planet.

I agree. The unfortunate thing is this is not HISTORY! This continues to this day as these issues have not been dealt with over the last 300 years.

I understand your point. You are choosing to be defensive though. I am not blaming you! Its your choice to feel blame. Do I blame white society in North America and Australia and other places… HELL YES. Because I blame WHITE SOCIETY does not mean I blame all white people. In Canada we are predominately Christian Whites. They held power then and committed these crimes. They tried to exterminate indigenous people for a few hundred years and now they lord over them not allowing them access to their own land, the rights they have by treaty, wont deal with them in courts, force agreements down their throats and continually rip them off for resource revenue that is theirs AND WONT GIVE THEM THE RIGHT TO ACCESS SERVICES LIKE HEALTH CARE, CLEAN WATER, SANITATION AND EDUCATION.

HOWEVER a good portion of our population suffers from some of these same issues because of these same people in power and how our systems are corrupt, broken and fake.

Oh in a perfect world. Now lets get back to reality and look at the prison populations in the US AND CANADA and you will soon see that we are already divided by race. Look at corporate boardrooms, every level of government. The Supreme court, congress and the senate. Check the records of who has lived in the White House. There are strong divisions of race through them all.

This saddens me greatly and trivializes my whole point. I am sorry you have hurt feelings you Savage Savage. But there are much more important problems in the world right now that actually matter to the rest of us. Go back to your cave and enjoy drinking your poisoned water in the river that flows downstream of the uranium mine. If you stopped shitting in the water you would be healthier and if you took better care of your women they would not be go missing and be getting murdered… Oh before you leave there’s a nice red bmx bicycle at the door named scalp. Get off your lazy fucking ass and get some exercise you fucking redskin.

Please note the HUGE mount of sarcasm above!! Not offended and I do not mean to offend. Just trying to make a point that this is more than just about some words.

Sorry this Covid is kicking my ass.

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I liked your comment above not because I agree with everything, but because I like you.

When I say constantly at war, I mean that like the united states, societies in general have lived in a constant state of war throughout most of history. In fact, I’d say that that peace is the exception and war is the rule, for the most part. In all societies.

We won’t solve anything here, but I do feel like white people are getting unfairly maligned during these times and forced to accept blame for the troubles of the past.

I have often thought I should have been born native. I would love nothing more than to throw off the chains of this so called civilized society and live differently.

Regardless of how some people may view me, with patronizing condescension, I don’t have any white guilt at all. I resent people trying to force it on me, but I do not possess it. What I do possess is a strong sense of right vs. wrong, and humans have been wrong to each other throughout history. It doesn’t trivialize the problems indigenous people have had and still have. I agree that those problems exist.

Certain people have misrepresented me here, but you havent, so I thank you for that. You haven’t always understood my points but that is how conversation goes and I know I haven’t always understood yours either. But you’d always spoken respectfully so I appreciate that.

I still think it is a very few at the top that benefit from us being riled up. The murders and disappearances of your people is horrible. I dont know all the specifics about it, but it is a bad thing. I personally don’t see society having a negative view of indigenous people but maybe I am naive?

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BTW, I agree with you on this point completely!!! Much of the worlds skirmishes are happening so that we are looking at the right hand and we are not looking at what the left hand is doing.

However when it comes to Indigenous issues in the states the argument does not really apply. It is not even on the radar. In Canada the last few years it has been different as we continue to find mass graves of children from residential schools. We are still finding those mass graves but Canada and the world cares less and less every minute.

Forget about all the buzz words, it is fundamentally just about mutual respect and listening to one another. And it isn’t that difficult: if your name were Benjamin and I called you Benni even though I know you hate it, I’m just being a d-bag. If you told me, you would like to be called Ben, then Ben it is. It is really that simple. If someone wants to be addressed as female, I just do it.

So if a community doesn’t want you to e. g. wear their traditional garb, just listen to them. It is not as if I am hurting myself never wearing an Indian costume again. It’s not a big deal.

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I live in Japan and when it comes to dealing with the complicity of the Japanese government and society with war crimes, it is in stark contrast to how Germany deals with it. The biggest difference is that even educated people simply don’t know about it. And then you might get peeved that the Korean government just can’t stop talking about “comfort women” (forced prostitutes). Most Japanese don’t know anything about the scope, about what had happened and the shameful reactions of Japanese governments at every turn (e. g. denying the existence of a database even though they had preserved it, etc.).

In contrast, after WW2 Germany and France collaborated on a common history grounded in the same scientifically established facts. While on the one hand, it doesn’t matter whether 5.75 or 6 or 6.25 million Jews were systematically killed by the Germans, it matters to be as factually accurate as you can. You see this with how the Chinese and Japanese governments have been treating the Nanking Massacre: by all accounts, tens of thousands of people died, but you have two wildly differing accounts by governments who have a history of propaganda (China) and downplaying its own crimes (Japan).

Getting more and different perspectives of history is good. You don’t have to subscribe to all tenets of the 1619 Project simply to understand that there is a facet of history that hasn’t been told. And in light of new information, we need to re-evaluate other aspects. This is normal.

Let me just add here: I don’t think government is the problem, government is almost always downstream from society and culture. Anti-semitism was and (to a lesser extent) still is rooted in many societies around the globe. Some people or governments may exploit that, but it almost invariably builds on something that pre-exists.

I don’t think this is a good way to frame these issues: for one, I think it is more important to stick to what has actually happened than hypotheticals. Just because other peoples could have acted in the same way doesn’t mean anything when they didn’t.

A lot of apologists — and I am not saying you are one — are using the same kinds of arguments: yes, warring African kings would sell prisoners of war and their families into slavery, etc. Historically that is factually accurate, this has happened. But it doesn’t free the English, the Dutch, the French, the Americans and all other “Western” nations from their responsibilities.

The fact that there were anti-semites in e. g. France, Poland or Ukraine who collaborated with the Nazis doesn’t lessen the historical burden on the Germans (and the Austrians).

IMHO you are framing it the wrong way around: it isn’t about anyone telling you anything, it is simply about treating others with respect. If you know that you having an artifact of another culture that was surely stolen at some point until it got into your possession, but you decide for yourself that you having it is more important to you, then it is just a lack of respect.

And to be clear: you could really believe that you are honoring and respecting their culture. I could want to wear a Native American garb because I think Native American warriors were awesome and whatnot. But knowing that this is something people who belong to these cultures dislike should at least make me reconsider.

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I see your point, but I also have disagreements.

If I call someone benni and they dont like it, yes, that is a dick move. But if I want to get a native american painting in my house, and display it, or some other artifact (not one that has been stolen or belongs in a museum or to the tribe, lets not go down that route) because I happen to feel a connection, real or not, to this culture, nobody should be able to tell me I am appropriating anything and to not do it.

Your not appropriating anything. You are buying art as you appreciate it. That sounds quite awesome to me!
You may even be supporting an indigenous artist! Even better… And if not so what!

Now if you by a indigenous ceremonial outfit made in China and put on warpaint, head to a braves game, get wasted and do the tomahawk chop I personally would not be happy about that. BUT that is from my perspective, biases and beliefs!

Highlighting Sarcasm Again.

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