Whether he’s trolling or not, it doesn’t really change my opinion of him as a person. I’m just glad he’s in the UK and I hopefully will never cross paths in real life.
But to @Jvnnick’s point, even if it’s trolling it does nothing but a disservice to racing and getting more people in the sport. What person is going to want to join the sport if this is what they think will happen? And it’s funny that the timing of this comes at the time of the silly Legion/NorCal tiff. No new rider is ever going to want to race. For all the inclusivity they claim to promote, there’s a lot of gatekeeping and just an overall feeling of exclusion, whether that be from an acceptance standpoint or safety like we’ve been talking about.
For all the talk of growing the sport and getting more people into cycling, we cyclists have a funny habit of doing everything to make cycling very unappealing. No wonder us roadies get roasted by the rest of the cycling community.
This isnt exactly an isolated occurrence. I’ve seen/heard of numerous and consistent ugly things in crits. I’m surprised they’re allowed to continue taking place honestly.
Heck…I sort of wish they ARE outlawed…maybe some more sane disciplines will fill the gap.
Pusherman, for all of his vileness, has illustrated a point pretty clearly - crits rely on 100% of the field being decent people in order to have a reasonable expectation of safety. As he’s shown, that isnt something that you can expect.
Dude. What’s with the “my way or the highway” attitude? It’s really annoying. I haven’t really witnessed anything like he advocated in my years of crit racing. I don’t think think he has shown anything except that he’s a loudmouth on the internet. You don’t like crits. I get it. Plenty of people do. But nothing said in this thread is good evidence of what crits are actually like.
It’s possible. Still…seeing him has been a wakeup call for me. I’ve raced crits here and there and enjoyed them, but always thought it was a bit irresponsible. Seeing Pushermans attitude reinforces that. I can’t subject my health and the viability of my family to idiots like him on a course. It would be unfair to me, my wife, and my daughter to even give someone like him the opportunity to attack me like that.
Whether the chances of that happening are 1% or 50% over a few years or a decade doesnt really matter honestly. It’s not worth it. Especially knowing there’s no mechanism to get people like him out of the sport.
In my experience…people like Pusherman are generally smart enough to STFU about their intentions. Maybe he is a particularly stupid example of nasty. Or the anonymity of internet is making him feel comfortable sharing his goals.
Either way…I’m not super surprised. There are vile people in all aspects of life… one really is relying on complete strangers to value your wellbeing in a crit.
Again, I think you are WAY overblowing the impact and risk caused by people like Pusherman.
All racing types aren’t for all people. I personally think ‘cross is miserable, while others live for it. Good for them…do what you love. But I don’t feel the need to invent scenarios to justify why I don’t race ‘cross. The net-net is I simply don’t enjoy it.
This is true in very aspect of everyday life….it is how ordered societies run. you rely on strangers to not blow through red lights / stop signs, you rely on strangers to not steal your stuff, etc. crits are just an extreme microcosm of our larger society.
I think this navel gazing is doing not a lot for the sport - you will find danger in all walks of life. I’ve been driving my daughter on a single carriageway and some idiot overtakes me doing 80mph+ while nearly having a head on collision with an oncoming car and taking us with them, so by your logic I should not drive anymore? Nevermind the hundreds of cars we pass that drive responsibly. Or, should I just be more aware that there are idiots (small minority) who are willing to take risks that endanger me in all walks of life and drive accordingly/be more vigilant? This isn’t a ‘crit’ problem, its a human one.
Agree on all points. Crits just strike me as being significantly more risky than these scenarios in everyday life. The motive, opportunity, and ease of getting away with behavior like what Pusherman describes are all much greater in a crit than other scenarios. Plus other racers are in a much more vulnerable state.
I mean the fact there is even a conversation taking place about this in the first place tells me pretty much all I need for my personal calculation…
I find myself generally sympathetic to your positions on this forum but extremely put off by the constant pop-psychologizing you mobilize in their support. Just a bit of maneuver critique.
You can choose not to race crits for your family’s sake and can chill and let other people do what they like. I think driving a car is dangerous but I’m not calling for them to be banned.
Most crashes in crits are due to errors or “racing accidents,” mechanicals, etc.
And most crashes are benign. We’re not all people with a death wish. It’s that simple.
That’s fair criticism. It’s something I’m more or less aware of. That said…I’m sure my view of other intents, at least on a bike, is certainly colored by my experiences…I’ve had multiple instances similar to what the person above described on their carriage road, where things did NOT turn out great. Hospital trip…civil suit, etc. so I’m very much personally aware of the kind of damage a few bad people can cause.
Oh also…really I swear I’m not quite this judgemental in real life . I think like a lot of people my worst biases are magnified on the internet.
I wonder what is killing the US crit scene more? People who lure other riders into potholes for the crime of drafting, or people who think lawyers need to be alerted when a course contains a pothole?
Please, both of you stay as far away from bike racing as possible. Neither of you get it.
I disagree. Everybody at a crit is there with a license, a name and number, probably a member of a club, these days likely is also identifiable on Strava, Insta and other social media. Many people know each other from previous races. There are usually spectators taking video and photos, and people with Go Pros in the race so a good chance of bad behaviour getting caught on camera and traced directly back to you. My experience has always been a strong sense of all being in it together. Race dangerously and you will get a reputation very quickly, and bike racing is a small world. I’ve certainly seen some dumb and dangerous moves, but they’ve invariably been due to lack of skills, experience or inability to think clearly at the end of a hard race. Never seen anything deliberate like described above.
And choosing where you race, who you race against, and how you race, all play a huge part in mitigating risk. I only took up bike racing in my 40s and have been at it for 6 years and done maybe 50-60 races, about half of them crits. I’ve never crashed in a race, and while I’ve had a few uncomfortable moments I’ve learned from them and figured out how to reduce the chances of them happening again. I simply wouldn’t race on a circuit with significant potholes, let alone one where the fastest line involves bunny hopping a pothole, that just sounds nuts. If I’m going to race a more technical circuit with some pinch points then I’ll also choose a race where the field isn’t too large and I have a reasonable expectation of being one of the stronger riders so it’s easier to stay near the front, and if necessary I can afford to sacrifice position to stay safe and then throw some watts at it to get back where I want to be. Or get in a break so I’m going through the technical sections solo or in a paceline and not elbow to elbow. Masters races are always a good option, there are circuits where I would do a masters race but wouldn’t mix it up with the youngsters.
Same. Mark the hole with paint. Or better yet, route the course well away from the hole (yeah, not always possible).
A circuit race I entered many years ago used a cone to mark a big crank in the concrete gutter. It was a gutter that people would definitely use on course. And being a circuit (longer than a crit), there were quite a few racers who didn’t have a chance to pre-ride the full course.
Of course, lap 1, there’s a line of people in the gutter and that cone got kicked out into the field and took out 5-6 racers (none of whom were in the gutter). Paint or a line of those little surveyor flags or something might have been safer.
Smart racing. None of the “course features” required extra-ordinary skill to maneuver through/around. And all should have been well-known by the bell lap.
What was described above was not what you described. A pothole that needs hopped at race speed requires extra-ordinary skill (at least for your average weekend warrior). And if the drafting rider doesn’t know it’s there, it must be early in the race. Total dick move.
The pothole example is extreme but it does point out the basic fact that to race safe you do need to, among a million other things, constantly be aware of both the skills (good and bad) of those around you and how your skills compare. If you’re following Peter Sagan (or the local stud 17 year old junior with the BMX background) into a round about, you better have a solid plan B if you’re not ready and able to hop a curb. Conversely, if the dick dude is leading you towards a pothole, can you hop it or do you need to move right or left? And if you need to move, which guy riding next to you, right or left, is going to give you room, or worse case, which guy can handle you using your shoulder to make a little room to avoid the hole (or maybe neither of them can handle a bump or are aware enough to give you room and you need to make the sacrifice of eating the hole rather than crashing someone else out. After all, you were the idiot that got yourself in that situation
Racing gets safer the more people there are in the race who have those skills, both bike handling and the ability to be right on picking the next best option.
I think the big distinction here though, is that it is reasonable to assume people in the rear of a paceline know a roundabout is coming. I think it can be said with near certainty that most people will NOT know when a pothole is coming if they arent first wheel, and certainly not with enough precision to hop it, assuming they’re capable even if they do see it.
The roundabout example is a good one though. I think it’s a gray area whether skipping over that in an amateur race would be acceptable or not.
Personally I think I’m confident enough in my skills I could hop a short curb fine at speed, but I would not attempt that as first wheel in a paceline. I can certainly see how others would choose differently, especially if they wanted to use it to get away from the group.
A fundamental race skill is knowing the course as best you can. Even in a single lap road race, anyone entering the race should know the major features like a roundabout and where the key course points are. 5 minutes on Google Maps and a look at Strava will take care of that. If you can’t pre-ride (or drive) the course that limits mapping out rough pavement etc but even with that you can get an idea from zooming in on the satellite view on Google Maps. Of course, for a multi lap crit, even if you can’t preride or walk it, by lap 3 you should know were any hazards are. Again anyone who gets on a new to them course without spending a few minutes on Google Maps is foolish.
As for potholes, that is definitely an area where skills will vary widely based on familiarity. I mentioned above that I live in Michigan and much like the Inuit have 57 different words for snow, cyclists around here are experts in potholes. Crappy pavement and holes are a fact of life. Experienced folks aren’t just looking for holes in front of them. They know how different types of pavement fail and where its likely that dangerous conditions will be based on the type and condition of the particular road surface you are on. Like Peter Sagan and the roundabout curb hop, if I lead you into a pothole, its not because I’m trying to crash you, it because my definition of an unrideable hole might be dramatically different than yours. Not only would I think anyone can deal with it (because everyone I ride with can), I’d be thinking “the surface just switched to concrete so everyone knows the road/curb joint should be considered sketchy until proven otherwise.” If you ride in Florida and are just doing a race up here for fun while visiting friends, you might crash but its not my fault! It is a skill mismatch that you didn’t figure out soon enough.
I am surprised with some of the comments here about “all fair and game in a crit”. I think there has to be some level of sportsmanship which is required when competing in any sport. For example, I personally don’t want to win by putting somebody else in danger. I want to win because of my skill on how to handle the race and the environment. Its a fine line… I know.
Say for example, I know that a gravel race has a train rail crossing. Chances are there will never be a train during the race. That said, rail crossings are dangerous and I always let others know there is a rail crossing coming.
A counter example, is a train is coming and I have a gap so I accelerate to jump in front of the train and drop the group who is caught behind the train - similar to all Fast and Furious movies. This would be unsportsmanship in my opinion.
. I think like a lot of people my worst biases are magnified on the internet.