# Why aren't "Masters" plans the default? **URL:** \ **Category:** Training\ **Created:** [November 28, 2023, 9:27pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657 "2023-11-28T21:27:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![grwoolf](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/grwoolf/32/7725_2.png) [@grwoolf](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/grwoolf)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 8:13pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657/42 "2023-11-29T20:13:49Z")
> [@Bones](#): > > but based on Nates w/kg data, Is that data posted somewhere? ---
**Author:** ![gally24](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/gally24/32/147365_2.png) [@gally24](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/gally24)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 8:14pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657/43 "2023-11-29T20:14:02Z")
Haha, not a brag at all. I was also surprised to find myself near the top for w/kg. It was partially the reason I switched to mid volume for this winter…my ego immediately said “hey you could probably be super duper special fast if you put more hours in!” ---
**Author:** ![mcneese.chad](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mcneese.chad/32/15056_2.png) [@mcneese.chad](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/mcneese.chad)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 8:15pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657/44 "2023-11-29T20:15:46Z")
Most recent was this podcast: - [https://youtu.be/8hY9qeBQEiY?si=RLgIJB2tJA86wCZZ&t=40](https://youtu.be/8hY9qeBQEiY?si=RLgIJB2tJA86wCZZ&t=40) ETA: - Broad info on **Men & Women** : - Much more segregated data sets with many **gender and age splits** : - **Pure FTP data** (not watts per kilogram): ---
**Author:** ![ZackeryWeimer](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/zackeryweimer/32/118962_2.png) [@ZackeryWeimer](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/ZackeryWeimer)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 8:26pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657/45 "2023-11-29T20:26:00Z")
Hey @Abidingdude, That’s just, like, your opinion, man (love your username – it’s my favorite movie!). It’s worth mentioning that we still believe in all of the plans that we prescribe to our athletes. Masters plans have been an awesome addition to our lineup, but many of our athletes follow and respond really well to our non-masters Low, Mid, and High Volume General Base plans as well. We still believe that time-crunched athletes (\<10 hours/week) who can manage non-masters plans are better off with more intensity (replacing some Endurance with Sweet Spot). Of course, as your training volume grows, intensity can’t continuously grow with it (you mentioned being unsure about this), and in those rare cases when athletes are training 20-30 hours each week, their intensity naturally becomes a lower percentage of their overall volume. We’re always looking for ways to accommodate our athletes better, and the Masters plans have been on the list for a while. As you mentioned, people like yourself will likely have much better success with these plans than taking on too much intensity. We like to have options for everyone! 😁 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@The\_Cog](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/The_Cog)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 8:30pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657/46 "2023-11-29T20:30:52Z")
It varies, of course, but here’s Monday’s workout (5400 y in 2 h), which I would say is typical. (Yesterday’s hasn’t uploaded yet.) (Data recorded using a Tritonwear Swimsense monitor. Zones are defined relative to an auto-detected critical swim speed, which would be in Z4.) ![Screenshot_20231129-152041](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/4/3/43f38070fd1a1866b0754b7e77295b16c2dababe.png) Swimming is of course an outlier, since essentially all training is broken up into relatively short efforts separated by even shorter rest periods. Regardless, I know plenty of elite athletes who routinely violate “the rules” as you will find constantly echoed on forums such as this one. Conversely, I don’t know any elite athletes who don’t routinely go hard at least 3 times/week, and often more. You can argue that they are just built different - and they undoubtedly are - but that’s all the more to not hold them up as an example of “best practice”, but instead figure out what works for you individually. ---
**Author:** ![therealemm](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/therealemm/32/12908_2.png) [@therealemm](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/therealemm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 8:55pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657/47 "2023-11-29T20:55:49Z")
That’s cool! neat app. So basically 1h30 of z5 and 1h15 of z4 a week. with 1h15 of various (most z1) I can see why olympic swimmers don’t do that distribution. elite swimmers I’d have to guess swim at least 12 hours a week. (phelps famously swam 30 hours a week) I ride 12 - 15 hours a week, I can’t do 4 hours of z5 or 4 hours of z4. I can get in about an hour of z4 maybe 2 or 3 of z3. with another 8 - 10 hours of riding I am nearly forced to do z2 or recovery. I’m confident I could do 5 or 6 30 minute z3/4 rides a week without any deleterious effects if the other days were off. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@The\_Cog](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/The_Cog)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 9:01pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657/48 "2023-11-29T21:01:36Z")
> [@therealemm](#): > > That’s cool! neat app. So basically 1h30 of z5 and 1h15 of z4 a week. with 1h15 of various (most z1) Don’t be fooled by the durations stated. My son trains more than you do. ---
**Author:** ![mtbtomo](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mtbtomo/32/87034_2.png) [@mtbtomo](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/mtbtomo)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 9:21pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657/49 "2023-11-29T21:21:04Z")
I’m sure I’ve heard podcasts with Stephen Seiler and Inigo San Milan advocating lots of zone 2 with a few intense sessions. At the end of the day, perhaps I’ve accepted where I’m going to be fitness wise. I’ve trained to a plan of some sort of 10 years now and it hasn’t made much difference whether I have done 3 or 4 intense sessions a week compared to 1 or 2 intense sessions. Since an initial ramp up when I started, my FTP fluctuates just above 4w/kg and at 44 years old, I don’t think there’s much to be gained worrying about whether Trainerroad is for serious athletes or “Mr average”. If I can peak my FTP over winter into the spring, without feeling trashed every week from needlessly doing more intensity than I need, then I don’t really care how the pros train. I don’t really care how TR lays out my training either cos I can layer what I know about how I feel and recover on top of TR’s mathematical modelling (Adaptive training) to plan out what works for me. I assume most people discussing this have the knowledge to do the same. There is no certainty in any plan. ---
**Author:** ![therealemm](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/therealemm/32/12908_2.png) [@therealemm](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/therealemm)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 9:36pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657/50 "2023-11-29T21:36:51Z")
😃 I’m sure he does. I certainly meant no offense. Though I’m unclear how that translates into the topic at hand. He does 5 very hard short swim workouts a week. This is closer to a low volume plan in duration, purely duration. If he had 2 hours a day instead of 1 I imagine those extra hours would be closer to zone 2. But I’m not a swim coach. so believe whatever you want to believe. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@The\_Cog](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/The_Cog)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2023, 11:52pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657/51 "2023-11-29T23:52:41Z")
As I said, ignore the durations reported. They’re the equivalent of “pedaling time” during a crit on a really tight circuit. Until HS season started, his club team had 9 practices spread over 6 d/wk, totaling 17 h/wk of “on deck” time (vs. Phelps’ max of 30 h). Part of that was taken up by dryland training, and of course it always takes a few minutes to get started and to wrap things up at the end. Looking back at a typical week last month, though, it totaled about 12 h of swimming, counting from the start of the warmup set to end of the cool down. On top of that, he takes a HS weight training class that meets 5 d/wk for 1 h. So, 20+ h of training each week, none of it \*easy". Again, the better clubs in the area do even more. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@The\_Cog](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/The_Cog)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 12:01am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657/52 "2023-11-30T00:01:35Z")
> [@Bones](#): > > can we compare swimming and cycling when prescribing hard sessions? I have no idea, but curious what @The_Cog thinks with his expertise. More so than comparing cycling with running, but as I said before (or subsequently?), swim training is unique in that everything is broken into intervals. ---
**Author:** ![Crownan](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/crownan/32/103116_2.png) [@Crownan](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Crownan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 10:40am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657/53 "2023-11-30T10:40:58Z")
> [@gally24](#): > > Personally, I spent a couple off seasons only doing the 3 intense rides a week, and sometimes added a day of z2. I don’t follow a plan at all really once the outdoor riding season comes along. Usually I just do one VO2 TrainNow workout per week to stay sharp. Willing to bet there’s a lot of people using TR that fall somewhere in that type of category. This is me too. 3 intense is fine when you’re not doing much else, and as you say TR has always been for the “Time Crunched Cyclist”. If I was doing 3 intense and 3-4 days of Z2, it might not be sustainable. Currently I’m doing LV, so 3 intense a week, and 2 x 1hr gymnastics, and 3-4 hour _enduro_ MTB on sundays. 43 y/o. ---
**Author:** ![HLaB](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/hlab/32/60448_2.png) [@HLaB](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/HLaB)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 10:55am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657/54 "2023-11-30T10:55:22Z")
> [@Timothy](#): > > Also Masters 1 as a race category starts at 30-34 yo (in Australia so I assume everywhere) Its same in the UK. [Road categories and classifications (britishcycling.org.uk)](https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/road/article/roadst_road-categories_classifications) ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/f/2/f23268c607b3b0be7de0b186bcb6d855a8169b46.png) ---
**Author:** ![Macy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/macy/32/6458_2.png) [@Macy](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Macy)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 12:06pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657/55 "2023-11-30T12:06:21Z")
> [@mtbtomo](#): > > I’m sure I’ve heard podcasts with Stephen Seiler and Inigo San Milan advocating lots of zone 2 with a few intense sessions. “Lots” probably the big thing regarding zone 2 though? ---
**Author:** ![AlexMartins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@AlexMartins](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/AlexMartins)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 1:25pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657/56 "2023-11-30T13:25:44Z")
You nailed it. IMO that’s the Achilles’ heel of TR. LV and 3 HIIT, then people fill the rest with lots of z2, group rides, intensity and burned them out. LV for me, it’s LV for those with NO TIME. MV looks more doable and adequate for 7-10 hrs. HV: no opinion. ---
**Author:** ![therealemm](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/therealemm/32/12908_2.png) [@therealemm](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/therealemm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 2:44pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657/57 "2023-11-30T14:44:53Z")
You know I thought I was going crazy for a minute, but did the plans themselves change? I put in a masters and non masters plan sequentially and the non masters plan doesn’t look anything like the plan I had a year ago. Just glancing at my old plan makes me tense, the new non-masters one looks fine to me. Maybe I’m nuts. (the old plan btw was 2 threshold 2 sweet spot and 1 endurance) I guess post swimming derailment I would say. There is no need to put a value statement on the plan itself, Masters is fine as far as names go and the age connotation is also fine. I for one don’t think being over 30 is a negative thing. Masters plan, for those who don’t want to overtrain. 😃 (that’s facetious…in case you were wondering) Saying, Fewer high intensity workouts is probably enough of a clue. It’s not a value statement, it doesn’t define the ‘hardness’ of the athlete, it just says if you want fewer high intensity workouts a week try this. Hell make a new ‘extreme’ edition where it’s 5 threshold workouts a week, (then say, hey it’s what swimmers do, don’t be a wimp) ---
**Author:** ![mcneese.chad](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mcneese.chad/32/15056_2.png) [@mcneese.chad](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/mcneese.chad)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 2:55pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657/58 "2023-11-30T14:55:56Z")
> [@therealemm](#): > > did the plans themselves change? - Yes, they made changes to the actual plans themselves beyond just the renaming of SSB to General Base. - [Masters Plans and More Launched Today! 🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/masters-plans-and-more-launched-today/87874) At least part is the following pulled from the link above: > We’ve made two specific updates to these base plans. > First, we’ve renamed “Sweet Spot Base” to "General Base . "Sweet Spot base wasn’t descriptive of what was encompassed in the plan, and led to confusion. > > **Second, we’ve changed the work-to-recovery ratio from 5:1 to 3:1. This means you’ll get a recovery week every fourth week in your general base plan.** > > **Sunday Endurance** > **Sunday rides in both Masters Plans and our normal plans have switched from sweet spot rides to endurance rides.** > > This gives athletes less intensity and the opportunity to extend the duration of their Sunday aerobic ride if they’d like. ---
**Author:** ![therealemm](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/therealemm/32/12908_2.png) [@therealemm](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/therealemm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 2:59pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657/59 "2023-11-30T14:59:43Z")
kinda funny, it sort of invalidates my main reason for wanting a masters plan. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Gnome](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/gnome/32/139448_2.png) [@Gnome](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Gnome)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 3:22pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657/60 "2023-11-30T15:22:40Z")
Aren’t swimmers known for overtraining and grinding themselves into the ground? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@The\_Cog](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/The_Cog)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2023, 3:31pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657/61 "2023-11-30T15:31:22Z")
Same claim could be made for elite athletes in any sport. That said, I think that the risks of overtraining is vastly overrated. In fact, I have only ever known _ **one** _ person to show clear symptoms of overtraining (of the “sympathetic” type). Most people simply don’t seem to have the motivation to push themselves that far. [Previous page](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657.md?page=2) [Next page](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/why-arent-masters-plans-the-default/88657.md?page=4)