# What are Five by Fives? Amber mentioned dreading them in the last two podcasts **URL:** \ **Category:** Training\ **Created:** [February 23, 2022, 3:46pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907 "2022-02-23T15:46:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![PhilSJones](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/philsjones/32/5495_2.png) [@PhilSJones](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/PhilSJones)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 3:46pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907/1 "2022-02-23T15:46:33Z")
In the last two Ask a Cycling Coach episodes there were mentions of “five by fives”, and even “five by five by five”. Amber said they were her most hated workout, (ACC 350 I think) as did Keegan (ACC 351). I assume this is something like five times five minutes at some VO2 percentage. Or are they something else? 1. But what are they? 2. What percentage of FTP are they? 3. And which workout can I find them in? Thanks ---
**Author:** ![AJS914](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@AJS914](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/AJS914)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 3:50pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907/2 "2022-02-23T15:50:33Z")
It’s the classic VO2 prescription. It’s all out. 5x5 would probably kill me. 🙂 I can do 3x5 but if I did 5 power would be fading by the 5th interval. I’ve also heard of the 5x5 strength program but I assume Amber wasn’t talking about strength training. > **[5x5 Workout: What It Is and How You Can Benefit](https://www.healthline.com/health/fitness/5x5-workout#what-it-is)** > > The 5x5 workout is a simple and highly effective way to begin a weightlifting program, no matter who you are. ---
**Author:** ![Cdallas2](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/cdallas2/32/154505_2.png) [@Cdallas2](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Cdallas2)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 4:01pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907/3 "2022-02-23T16:01:04Z")
Ouchie… 🤢 > **[Get Faster with TrainerRoad](https://www.trainerroad.com/app/cycling/workouts/18062-red-lake-)** > > Cycling's most effective training system. Structured indoor and outdoor workouts, proven training plans, and easy-to-use ride analysis tools. ---
**Author:** ![HMG](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/hmg/32/74326_2.png) [@HMG](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/HMG)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 4:18pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907/4 "2022-02-23T16:18:16Z")
These longer VO2 max intervals are the path to serious gains. Serious stress, but also serious gains. ---
**Author:** ![Gnome](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/gnome/32/139448_2.png) [@Gnome](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Gnome)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 4:18pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907/5 "2022-02-23T16:18:48Z")
How so? ---
**Author:** ![HMG](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/hmg/32/74326_2.png) [@HMG](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/HMG)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 4:25pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907/7 "2022-02-23T16:25:33Z")
There are several lengthy forum posts re: short vs long VO2 max intervals. Here’s one: > [@VO2 Max: Short vs Long Intervals](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/vo2-max-short-vs-long-intervals/54538): > > Got a bit of a (perhaps) dumb question. I did a little block of VO2 max work over the last 2 weeks. Last week I was able to finish Spencer +2 and a custom version of Monadnock with 6x3 @ 122%. I started General Build Low Volume this week and have Spanish Needle (15/15s @ 150%) coming up. Because of my schedule, I didn’t do a ramp test to start off because I only had 2 days to get a decent workout this week. So my FTP is the same that I completed Spencer +2. My question is: what would provide th… Probably best to form your own opinion, but longer intervals are more effective for me personally. ---
**Author:** ![PhilSJones](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/philsjones/32/5495_2.png) [@PhilSJones](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/PhilSJones)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 4:33pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907/8 "2022-02-23T16:33:08Z")
> [@AJS914](#): > > It’s the classic VO2 prescription. It’s all out. Surely they are at some % of FTP and its the level above FTP that kills you? Especially with a short recovery. That does not sound like all out to me. I have been doing 4x5 at 111% with 10min recover Haw Knob. That were hard but I did them mostly in my TT position. Also 4x5min@113% with 10min recovery (6.2). I have Monadnock coming up in a week or so. That is 6x5 mins. wL 6.9. Ummm @Cdallas2 Ok, 5x108% with 3 min recovery Red Lake 7.0 - that sounds nasty. What is the significance of the third 5? Is it 5 mins rest? Or something else? @ambermalika What is it about the 5x5s that you do that gives you so much trepidation? Is it the % above FTP or the length of the recovery? ---
**Author:** ![HMG](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/hmg/32/74326_2.png) [@HMG](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/HMG)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 4:39pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907/9 "2022-02-23T16:39:16Z")
> [@AJS914](#): > > It’s all out. Disagree. Should be very very hard but not all-out ---
**Author:** ![AJS914](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@AJS914](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/AJS914)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 4:44pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907/10 "2022-02-23T16:44:30Z")
> [@PhilSJones](#): > > Surely they are at some % of FTP and its the level above FTP that kills you? Especially with a short recovery. That does not sound like all out to me. Every intensity above FTP kills you eventually. You can make up whatever prescription of power and duration you like. Some say that you want to hit 90% of HRmax on these intervals. 5x5 is nothing magical nor has any scientific validation. It’s a ballpark generic prescription like 2x20min at FTP. ---
**Author:** ![batwood14](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/batwood14/32/30318_2.png) [@batwood14](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/batwood14)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 4:55pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907/11 "2022-02-23T16:55:23Z")
> [@PhilSJones](#): > > Surely they are at some % of FTP and its the level above FTP that kills you? Generally with these things, the point isn’t to ride to some % of FTP … it’s to ride as hard as you can for 5 mins, and in that way you will achieve Vo2 (or so I’ve been told) … if you use 108% as a guide, you should ride above it if you can/if it feels too easy. I’m sure there will be disagreements on this post, and I’m definitely not a coach. Good luck🤘 ---
**Author:** ![Gnome](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/gnome/32/139448_2.png) [@Gnome](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Gnome)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 4:56pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907/12 "2022-02-23T16:56:30Z")
The reason I’m being critical is just by the dose of the prescription, and the sometimes immense undertaking of that workout prescription. Makes me ask: What is the athlete lacking in a physiological sense? What adaptation is that athlete after? Is there a less fatiguing way to achieve that adaptation? ---
**Author:** ![AJS914](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@AJS914](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/AJS914)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 5:15pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907/13 "2022-02-23T17:15:15Z")
Does anyone else have trouble hitting 90% of HRmax on these kinds of intervals? I get there in the end but it takes a long time. Seiler often talks about collecting minutes at 90% but those are dang hard minutes to collect for me. ---
**Author:** ![FrankTuna](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/franktuna/32/135629_2.png) [@FrankTuna](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/FrankTuna)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 5:18pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907/15 "2022-02-23T17:18:13Z")
Five days per week? Five by five by five by five? ---
**Author:** ![cmc274](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/cmc274/32/7721_2.png) [@cmc274](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/cmc274)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 5:19pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907/16 "2022-02-23T17:19:58Z")
A variation on it. Good read (Nate is also a coach @ EF). > **[The Workout: 5x5 Varied — Catalyst Coaching](http://www.catalystcoachingco.com/content/2019/2/7/the-workout-5x5-varied)** > > It’s February! Super bowl is done. For a lot of our road racers it is starting to feel like racing season is just around the corner. As far as training goes, that means that maybe the base is starting to get pretty robust, athletes are getting... ---
**Author:** ![HLaB](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/hlab/32/60448_2.png) [@HLaB](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/HLaB)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 5:28pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907/17 "2022-02-23T17:28:21Z")
I think the jist of Seiler’s podcast on the subject (at least the one I listened to below) is that you do go all out to illicit adaptations but if you can’t manage a full 5 mins of all out, simply don’t. > **[Watts Doc #23: Training Your VO2max, and Why Not Rønnestad 30/15 Intervals](https://www.empiricalcycling.com/podcast-episodes/watts-doc-23-training-your-vo2max-and-why-not-rnnestad-3015-intervals)** > > Copyright © 2019 ---
**Author:** ![HLaB](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/hlab/32/60448_2.png) [@HLaB](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/HLaB)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 5:31pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907/19 "2022-02-23T17:31:32Z")
We are all different but how long are you’re VO2MAX intervals. I think I have heard that some athletes need 2minutes before they get to 90% + ---
**Author:** ![bobmcstuff](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/bobmcstuff/32/12893_2.png) [@bobmcstuff](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/bobmcstuff)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 5:36pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907/20 "2022-02-23T17:36:09Z")
> [@AJS914](#): > > Does anyone else have trouble hitting 90% of HRmax on these kinds of intervals? I get there in the end but it takes a long time. Seiler often talks about collecting minutes at 90% but those are dang hard minutes to collect for me. Unless I am misunderstanding what HRmax is somehow - mine’s 192 so 90% is 172, which I see pretty often… it would only be somewhere in threshold for me, if doing proper VO2 intervals I expect to routinely be seeing higher numbers than that. But then, my exercise heart rate always seems high (seems to run in the family), so maybe it is just personal. ---
**Author:** ![WindWarrior](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/windwarrior/32/84679_2.png) [@WindWarrior](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/WindWarrior)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 5:36pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907/21 "2022-02-23T17:36:15Z")
> [@AJS914](#): > > Does anyone else have trouble hitting 90% of HRmax on these kinds of intervals? Yes, I’m at 91% HRmax riding at threshold 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bigpikle](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/bigpikle/32/11213_2.png) [@Bigpikle](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Bigpikle)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 5:39pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907/22 "2022-02-23T17:39:27Z")
5x5x5 is standard notation that means 5 x a 5 min interval with 5 mins rest between each interval ---
**Author:** ![bobmcstuff](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/bobmcstuff/32/12893_2.png) [@bobmcstuff](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/bobmcstuff)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2022, 5:45pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907/24 "2022-02-23T17:45:07Z")
Not just me then! I can easily do greater than 90% for a while. [Next page](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/what-are-five-by-fives-amber-mentioned-dreading-them-in-the-last-two-podcasts/69907.md?page=2)