# TR can answer a common cyclist argument...Outdoor FTP different than Indoor FTP? **URL:** \ **Category:** Training\ **Created:** [February 11, 2022, 3:51pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290 "2022-02-11T15:51:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mcneese.chad](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mcneese.chad/32/15056_2.png) [@mcneese.chad](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/mcneese.chad)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2022, 5:27pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290/23 "2022-02-11T17:27:11Z")
Yeah, and sadly (_from memory reading the looong DCR thread and even ours here_) some people are seeing real differences between the Kickr Bike and various pedal power meters. They sure could match, but it’s also possible for a meaningful delta. Without some way to compare the two against a 3rd source (power meter pedals), it’s impossible to know. So it’s just another question mark in this scenario. ---
**Author:** ![mcneese.chad](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mcneese.chad/32/15056_2.png) [@mcneese.chad](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/mcneese.chad)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2022, 5:29pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290/24 "2022-02-11T17:29:02Z")
🤣 Happy to be of service. ---
**Author:** ![kurt.braeckel](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/kurt.braeckel/32/116719_2.png) [@kurt.braeckel](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/kurt.braeckel)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2022, 5:39pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290/25 "2022-02-11T17:39:44Z")
> [@SalvatoreGilbert](#): > > 1. Get a bigger fan 1a. Get more bigger fans. 😈 ---
**Author:** ![F10naGodless](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/f10nagodless/32/88755_2.png) [@F10naGodless](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/F10naGodless)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2022, 6:24pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290/26 "2022-02-11T18:24:04Z")
I wish there was a way to use pedals and still return them. 😇 I guess when my kid switches from tennis shoes to bike cleats I’ll get some power meter pedals and do some experiments ---
**Author:** ![Aplcr0331](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/aplcr0331/32/118333_2.png) [@Aplcr0331](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Aplcr0331)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2022, 6:44pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290/27 "2022-02-11T18:44:39Z")
On a related note, if I want to move my Stages crank arm over to my trainer bike to check power data between it and my Hammer…will any workout do? Or should I do something like a kitchen sink Zwift workout with every sort of effort? I would think a steady state workout would be best…but I’m an idiot so what I assume is usually wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Janhein](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/janhein/32/7721_2.png) [@Janhein](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Janhein)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2022, 6:45pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290/28 "2022-02-11T18:45:17Z")
For years I was a firm believer in the TR position referenced above, and improvements to cooling and paying more attention to hydration have certainly helped significantly. The power meter discussion is relevant for some setups, but I am using the same power pedals for all workouts. And still, I can produce more power outdoors than indoors. Literature is very limited, but the article below does put the discussion in a different light. Yes, the number of participants is small (n = 12), but conditions were well controlled and the gap in output is enormous (much bigger than I personally experience). That in combination with various articles on the differences in pedaling biomechanics between indoor trainers and outdoor cycling makes me believe there is a real difference that cannot be solved easily with additional fans. And the conclusion is not favorable for us indoor warriors: “…it may be assumed that our participants received a better training stimulus outdoors than indoors…” > **[Physiological and Psychological Responses to Outdoor vs.... : The Journal of...](https://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Fulltext/2014/08000/Physiological_and_Psychological_Responses_to.29.aspx)** > > ationally trained male cyclists participated in an initial descriptive testing session and 2 experimental trials consisting of 1 laboratory and 1 outdoor session, in a randomized order. Participants were given a standardized statement instructing... ---
**Author:** ![ibaldwin](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/ibaldwin/32/44413_2.png) [@ibaldwin](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/ibaldwin)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2022, 6:49pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290/29 "2022-02-11T18:49:08Z")
> [@mcneese.chad](#): > > From listening to the times on the cast where they addressed this, my paraphrase would be this: > > - _We have **one** actual, physiological FTP._ > - _What differs is our ability to express that FTP based in / on / with different environments, bike setups, power measurement devices, training states, etc._ Mic drop /thread ---
**Author:** ![mcneese.chad](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mcneese.chad/32/15056_2.png) [@mcneese.chad](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/mcneese.chad)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2022, 6:51pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290/30 "2022-02-11T18:51:47Z")
If you want a comprehensive approach, I’d consider these: - [GPLama How To: Comparing Power Meters // Power Accuracy Testing // DCR Analyzer Tool - YouTube](https://youtu.be/JhheDLXRM7I) - [DCR Analyzer Tool Overview & Manual](https://www.dcrainmaker.com/analyzer) - [How To Use ZwiftPower’s Dual Recording Power Analysis Tool | Zwift Insider](https://zwiftinsider.com/zwiftpower-dual-recording/) ---
**Author:** ![mcneese.chad](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mcneese.chad/32/15056_2.png) [@mcneese.chad](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/mcneese.chad)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2022, 7:00pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290/31 "2022-02-11T19:00:18Z")
I am far from an expert at looking at studies (_totally rookie to be honest_), but the biggest initial note from me (_after reading just the Abstract_) is that they are setting the efforts based on RPE as the constant, and measuring the deltas in power and other variables. That seems SUPER important to me in light of the fact that TR is based almost entirely on power based training. That matters because it takes the subjective RPE partly out of the equation. As such, assuming you are using the same power data/device inside and outside, that may well nullify the conclusion of the study. To summarize my take on the study and their conclusion: - Training with consistent RPE leads to lower power levels inside vs outside… which may lead to lower training stimulus and related adaptations. However, if we standardize with POWER (_not RPE_) and get to a point where there is minimal power gap (_as is the goal of handling the variables identified by TR_), I think there is less gap on the Inside vs Outside training results. I admit, it may not be possible to get to equal in all cases. Despite that, there are realities present in life that may make the inside training the only option in that given moment. Weather, parental duties and countless other reasons lead people to train inside. So if that is unavoidable, that training is still better if the alternative is nothing. Then consider the potential of imperfect conditions and related training when taking that outside. It’s one thing to do a single 40km test as they did. It’s yet another to do a series of workouts with varying power levels outside. Road conditions, weather, sharing road access and other conditions can all lead to less than perfect implementation of any given workout. Some people have great conditions, while others are in terrible spots. The consistent and predictable nature of inside offers some real advantages if we look at the core issue of applying loads to the body in order to drive adaptations. I don’t know if “perfect” intervals are necessary or lead to better results, but for many people, there can be a notable difference in execution of training intervals between inside and outside. The study is interesting, but well short of telling a full picture of what it means to train on a longer and larger scale. * * * # Edit to add during my reading in the “Experimental Trials” section: > During the laboratory trial, participants **were not allowed the use of a fan**. - Biggest of big red flags right there! They make statements about consistent environments, which only seems to mean that outside was similar to outside for each test, and inside was similar to inside for each test. Later on: > The trials occurred in late August to early October, at a time of day when the **environmental conditions outside were closest to the general conditions of the laboratory** (i.e., low wind, similar temperature, and relative humidity, etc.). - Despite the similar temperatures & humidity, the total lack of a fan for cooling inside is monumental IMO, and enough to call the conclusions into question right there. I don’t think anyone can claim that this is an equal test compared to outside with the cooling effect that we know it provides (_even if the T&H were identical_). - They point to the 2.5mph wind speed, but totally ignore the relative wind speed of the rider at speed outside. IMO, that is not negligible when compared to a static rider inside and provides a known improvement to evaporative cooling effect. - At most, the conclusion I see from this is “_Training inside without a fan is harder (higher RPE) than outside._” which is news to no one. * * * > [@Janhein](#): > > For years I was a firm believer in the TR position referenced above, and improvements to cooling and paying more attention to hydration have certainly helped significantly. The power meter discussion is relevant for some setups, but I am using the same power pedals for all workouts. And still, I can produce more power outdoors than indoors. - With respect to your indoor setup, what about the other factors covered above besides Cooling and Power Data? Are those all optimized to a similar degree for best results inside? ---
**Author:** ![MI-XC](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mi-xc/32/12993_2.png) [@MI-XC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/MI-XC)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2022, 7:31pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290/32 "2022-02-11T19:31:32Z")
I don’t get all you “outside power is better folks”. When I look at my Personal Records over the past 3 years from 1:30 min - 2 hours, I’d estimate that 95% of my PRs are from TR indoor workouts. This is using the same PM indoors and outside. ---
**Author:** ![HLaB](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/hlab/32/60448_2.png) [@HLaB](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/HLaB)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2022, 7:46pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290/33 "2022-02-11T19:46:34Z")
My short term power outside (sub a couple of minutes) is higher (perhaps they external factors like air cooling) but my longer term power is a lot better inside when I don’t have to worry about pushing to the edge (traffic, falling off, getting home etc). ---
**Author:** ![jjmc](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/jjmc/32/12893_2.png) [@jjmc](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/jjmc)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2022, 8:23pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290/34 "2022-02-11T20:23:36Z")
> [@mcneese.chad](#): > > We have **one** actual, physiological FTP But, like…FTP _isnt_ physiological…at least to some physiologists who know more than me…. Alright, now that I threw that grenade, I’m going to run and hide. ---
**Author:** ![jjmc](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/jjmc/32/12893_2.png) [@jjmc](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/jjmc)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2022, 8:24pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290/35 "2022-02-11T20:24:16Z")
> [@MI-XC](#): > > I don’t get all you “outside power is better folks”. When I look at my Personal Records over the past 3 years from 1:30 min - 2 hours, I’d estimate that 95% of my PRs are from TR indoor workouts. This is using the same PM indoors and outside Same…my numbers line up extremely well and many records are set on the trainer. ---
**Author:** ![Bagz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e56c9b/32.png) [@Bagz](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Bagz)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2022, 8:25pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290/36 "2022-02-11T20:25:47Z")
I’m the opposite. The majority of intervals in TR i do are likely to be repeated throughout the workout and therefore not all out efforts. But i suppose a lot depends on the workouts you’re doing. ---
**Author:** ![Bagz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e56c9b/32.png) [@Bagz](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Bagz)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2022, 8:27pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290/37 "2022-02-11T20:27:39Z")
Think i need a bigger fan. Big difference for me despite power sources being less that 1% different. ---
**Author:** ![mcneese.chad](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mcneese.chad/32/15056_2.png) [@mcneese.chad](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/mcneese.chad)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2022, 8:33pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290/38 "2022-02-11T20:33:48Z")
Bigger, maybe. Better, definitely. I can’t stress how much better the blower style fans are compared to any of the half dozen circular fans I have tried. Couple that with at least one of those blowers in front AND in back (_2 total in use_), and you can consider that a decent start. I still get people questioning me about my rear fan. If I had to pick one fan position only, I am 90% sure it would be the rear one. It seems more effective considering the flow and surface area I can get it to hit. Boot to hips, lower back all the way to my neck and back of my head. It’s a massive area and potential for improvement if people are still using front fans only. ---
**Author:** ![stino77](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f17d59/32.png) [@stino77](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/stino77)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2022, 9:26pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290/39 "2022-02-11T21:26:30Z")
I think difference is mainly because off difference between outdoor VS indoor roadfeel. I ride indoor on Tacx neo and my stages power meter. Watts do match but outdoor FTP is 15-20w higher. Cooling and mental are no issue. For me it is the inertia that gives another level of fatigue in muscles. Indoor they need to work harder to complete the full pedal stroke. ---
**Author:** ![WindWarrior](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/windwarrior/32/84679_2.png) [@WindWarrior](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/WindWarrior)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2022, 9:47pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290/40 "2022-02-11T21:47:14Z")
> [@MI-XC](#): > > I don’t get all you “outside power is better folks”. When I look at my Personal Records over the past 3 years from 1:30 min - 2 hours, I’d estimate that 95% of my PRs are from TR indoor workouts. This is using the same PM indoors and outside. I see basically the same power on inside and outside workouts. However I do a LOT more riding outside than inside. There are some exceptions - 2014/2015 was 50/50 split, but no power data; and 2019 was 25/75 in/out split but low volume and lower fitness. Pulling up TrainingPeaks app and looking at top 5 at these durations - 5-sec, 1-min, 5-min, 10-min, 20-min, 60-min, and 90-min - gives 35 total top-5 PRs and only 3 are indoor. So 85% outside for my all-time top-5 PRs at those 7 durations. My #1 and #3 all-time 10-minute power bests were in the gym on a (brand new) Stages SC3 stationary bike, in Sept-Oct 2016. Back then the bikes were new, and I didn’t know how to zero reset the bikes, so the power might be off a bit. Recorded that #1 10-min PR on my Garmin 520 and so I know it was 77 degrees at 7:45pm in the spin room. That room has really bad fans, definitely poor airflow but better than nothing. For context I had been riding outside 8 hours/week in 90-100 degree heat, and it was a time-crunched 35 minute workout. ---
**Author:** ![GoLongThenGoHome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/439d5e/32.png) [@GoLongThenGoHome](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/GoLongThenGoHome)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2022, 9:49pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290/41 "2022-02-11T21:49:52Z")
Is it a common argument? I just ride my bike outdoors, and work a lot off RPE in terms of sustainable efforts. I see ftp as just something you can test and then use to easily scale workout power intensities on the turbo. Sacrilege I know. There’s also the reality that what you can manage in 20 mins indoor when fresh will bear no resemblance to what you can manage 5 hours into a race outdoors when fatigued (unless you are a pro) ---
**Author:** ![WindWarrior](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/windwarrior/32/84679_2.png) [@WindWarrior](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/WindWarrior)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2022, 10:33pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290/44 "2022-02-11T22:33:35Z")
Same here, I don’t really see a difference between inside and outside power. I will see lower HR on inside endurance rides, but not on intervals. Most of my inside rides are on my road bike and Kickr direct-drive. [Previous page](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290.md?page=1) [Next page](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/tr-can-answer-a-common-cyclist-argument-outdoor-ftp-different-than-indoor-ftp/69290.md?page=3)