# Sweet Spot Progression **URL:** \ **Category:** Training\ **Created:** [January 3, 2020, 12:34am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979 "2020-01-03T00:34:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 86
**Author:** ![jarsson](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/jarsson/32/69117_2.png) [@jarsson](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/jarsson)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 12:52pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1796 "2021-03-17T12:52:36Z")
> [@JJon](#): > > Lets say someone can ride 40min at 300w so he trains to get it 60min. Then what? If your TTE is 60 min it is only a guide for TiZ so to elicit adaptations you need go TTE or longer. The result can be extended tte over 60 min at given power or improvement in FTP. If you do not see any changes after around 8 weeks - introduce another stimulus like shorter TiZ and higher power or vo2 max block etc. And yes your FTP power can be over 60 min. ---
**Author:** ![anthonylane](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/anthonylane/32/7098_2.png) [@anthonylane](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/anthonylane)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 1:51pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1797 "2021-03-17T13:51:27Z")
Having come off a 5 week block that brought my SS progression out to a modest 1x60, I decided it was time to test the legs and do a gravel ride…which subsequently turned into a bit of a race (I have a couple friends that cannot hold back). I did this on my single speed, which doesn’t have a power meter. I don’t know yet if my FTP has benefited from this block, but if anything, it has really helped with my TTE as well as riding at or near threshold for long (for me) periods of time. 2 1/4 hours at or above 165 bpm (which is 85% of HRM) ![Screen Shot 2021-03-17 at 8.49.32 AM](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/3/7/37a537e979da0c20b660d5a7341b8d6620529969.png) ![Screen Shot 2021-03-17 at 8.49.58 AM](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/d/4/d46b61913d18f1bb734e79f95ebe4e19d5b6898a.png) _I have 10 weeks to go until my first real race of the season. It’s one I’d like to win, so it’s an A-race. I’m thinking that I could either progress time @ Sweet Spot further (how far?) or start a 3-week build block to bring FTP up from the bottom followed by a 3-week VO2 block to sharpen._ ---
**Author:** ![RONDAL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/rondal/32/7721_2.png) [@RONDAL](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/RONDAL)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 2:12pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1798 "2021-03-17T14:12:21Z")
The proposed blocks are extensive-\>intensive-\>vo2. The goals being ~200% TTE target for extensive, 150% for intensive, and 18-20min for Vo2. All the while you should be also looking at your metrics, specifically your VO2/FTP as a %. As that starts creeping up into the 83-85% range you’re likely getting close to capacity, so then you hit VO2 to raise everything up, and hopefully can start again at a much higher FTP. Everyone is going to be individual in terms of timing, when they are reaching they capacity (what %), and how long they need to stay in a block to see the adaptions, and ultimately when you want to peak, but hopefully this helps you think about the structure and markers to look for so that you know when its time to move. ---
**Author:** ![kurt.braeckel](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/kurt.braeckel/32/116719_2.png) [@kurt.braeckel](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/kurt.braeckel)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2021, 10:36pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1799 "2021-03-17T22:36:14Z")
> [@JJon](#): > > Lets say someone can ride 40min at 300w so he trains to get it 60min. Then what? Push power higher. Instead of extending TiZ, raise the power you’re working at. Alternately transition to a VO2max-focused block, or an appropriate build/peak block for your events. ---
**Author:** ![anthonylane](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/anthonylane/32/7098_2.png) [@anthonylane](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/anthonylane)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 5:47pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1800 "2021-03-18T17:47:46Z")
Coming out of adaptation/rest weeks is always eye opening… I start a 3-week threshold block on Monday. As a warm-up I did one of the new [TR polarized workouts today](https://www.trainerroad.com/app/career/anthonylane/rides/105720305-brian-head) which was 4x8 @ 104%. 5 weeks ago I did 337w for 20 min in the Baseline FTP test, so I thought this wouldn’t be too tough. Well… 1. 4x8 min @ 332w felt significantly harder than expected. Harder than my TTE test of 337w for 20 min. What a slap in the face. 2. Why do I still feel fatigued after 100TSS in the last week, despite good sleep, nutrition, etc? 3. What gains, if any has the prior 5-week SS progression netted me? I’m a little nervous going into this upcoming build-block. I thought that RPE, HR would be alluding to some nice fitness gains and that all existing wattages up to FTP and slightly above would feel “easier”, but this workout was unusually difficult, and certainly didn’t show any sort of fitness gains coming off a nice Sweet Spot block. ---
**Author:** ![hdas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/90db22/32.png) [@hdas](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/hdas)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 6:14pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1801 "2021-03-18T18:14:21Z")
> [@anthonylane](#): > > What gains, if any has the prior 5-week SS progression netted me? How many of these blocks have you done in the last 3 months, 6 months ?.. I think context is needed. ---
**Author:** ![PattyP](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6a8cbe/32.png) [@PattyP](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/PattyP)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 6:26pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1802 "2021-03-18T18:26:18Z")
Iam now in a restweek as always i feel tired and now power in my legs…this takes half a week before I feel good again…with the search you will find a lot of people with the same experience…so i think its normal. This is also the reason why I only test short efforts immediately after a rest week and only half a week later, if necessary, an FTP test ---
**Author:** ![anthonylane](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/anthonylane/32/7098_2.png) [@anthonylane](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/anthonylane)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 6:30pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1803 "2021-03-18T18:30:46Z")
> [@hdas](#): > > How many of this blocks have you done in the last 3 months, 6 months ?.. I think context is needed. Last 5 weeks: Sweet Spot and O/U progression pushed out to 1x60 (KM Baseline Test included in that block) Oct-Feb: Unstructured, lots of tempo and Z2, lots of weight lifting. Averaged around ~200-250 TSS/week The good thing, my FTP and CTL have never been higher at this point in the season. I think what’s interesting is the intersection of cumulative fatigue from the 5 week SS progression and w/e fitness gains that netted me (if any). I would have expected, at a minimum, to see lower RPE and heart rate values on pretty much all wattages, even if FTP didn’t increase. I have no doubt that if I did another TTE test my avg power would be lower than what it was 5 weeks ago. Stings. > [@PattyP](#): > > Iam now in a restweek as always i feel tired and now power in my legs…this takes half a week before I feel good again…with the search you will find a lot of people with the same experience…so i think its normal. > > This is also the reason why I only test short efforts immediately after a rest week and only half a week later, if necessary, an FTP test Yep, I realize that during rest weeks our body is adapting to the previous block of stress and it’s normal to feel “off”. I’ve accepted some level of malaise and fatigue, but I would also expect to see some markers that let me know my fitness is improving as well as body shedding accumulated fatigue. This is not happening after 5 days of near complete rest. Has me a bit concerned. I feel worse than I did my last heavy week. I was carrying about and even TSB balance going into today. ---
**Author:** ![hdas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/90db22/32.png) [@hdas](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/hdas)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 6:48pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1804 "2021-03-18T18:48:33Z")
> [@anthonylane](#): > > I would have expected, at a minimum, to see lower RPE and heart rate values on pretty much all wattages, even if FTP didn’t increase. IMO this is a case of mismatch of expectations and actual experience. Doesn’t seem that anything is abnormal. I was also wondering if there’s any evidence that SST work has any noticeable carry over on supra-threshold work. ---
**Author:** ![anthonylane](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/anthonylane/32/7098_2.png) [@anthonylane](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/anthonylane)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 7:03pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1805 "2021-03-18T19:03:24Z")
> [@hdas](#): > > IMO this is a case of mismatch of expectations and actual experience. Doesn’t seem that anything is abnormal. I was also wondering if there’s any evidence that SST work has any noticeable carry over on supra-threshold work. I think what smacked me in the face was the RPE associated with 8-min @ 104% of FTP vs 20-min at 105% of FTP 5 weeks ago during the KM TTE test. Like how did I nail 20-min @ 105% BEFORE a solid training block, and then feel worse after? That’s why I’m scratching my balding head. I do believe that power-to-heart-rate ratio increases as we get more aerobically fit, and I would say that 5 weeks of a solid sweet spot progression should yield some aerobic gains and a better power-to-heart-rate ratio. Sometimes I think we (me) expect to much and I’m likely over-thinking it. Chart comparing the last 5-weeks (SS prog block) vs the previous couple months of relatively little structure. ![Screen Shot 2021-03-18 at 2.06.39 PM](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/2/3/23338cd9692403365ed73afcc45447a096d3ceb6.png) Curious how the rest of y’all have fared coming out of extended sweet spot progressions. The first one of the season is always “fun”. I’ll also caveat that the longest ride I’ve done since September is 2 hr 45 min, so I haven’t really touched up the endurance engine as much as I’d have liked…but it’s COLD in Minnesota. Here’s hoping the next block goes off with a bang! ---
**Author:** ![codybraithwaite7](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/codybraithwaite7/32/7725_2.png) [@codybraithwaite7](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/codybraithwaite7)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 7:08pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1806 "2021-03-18T19:08:53Z")
What was the percent of your max heart rate, not of your theoretical threshold heart rate. ---
**Author:** ![anthonylane](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/anthonylane/32/7098_2.png) [@anthonylane](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/anthonylane)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 7:28pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1807 "2021-03-18T19:28:43Z")
Max HR is 196 this season so far. Usually when doing sustained efforts @ 90% of FTP my HR holds at 163-166. 1x60 @ 90% held steady at 165 bpm. That’s falls right inline for the last 4 seasons. Threshold heart rate is around 177-178 BPM. ---
**Author:** ![4ibanez](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/4ibanez/32/41353_2.png) [@4ibanez](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/4ibanez)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 7:38pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1808 "2021-03-18T19:38:46Z")
Like you said, you could still be tired or flat. 100 TSS is pretty low, so you’re probably recovering well, which puts the body in a “rest and digest” state where hard work is pretty unpleasant. I’m currently limping through a very easy recovery week. Not doing anything other than Z1 until a long Z2 on Sunday. I suspect next Tuesday’s workout is going to feel grim. ---
**Author:** ![kurt.braeckel](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/kurt.braeckel/32/116719_2.png) [@kurt.braeckel](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/kurt.braeckel)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 7:42pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1809 "2021-03-18T19:42:10Z")
I’m always stale coming out of recovery. Case in point when I just had that bad TTE test after 10 days of easy riding after VO2max where the longest interval I did was 5 min… then two days after that did 1x60 at 5W higher than last time I did it, and then nailed 3x25 at 7W higher than last time. For my n=1, I can’t just recover into good performances. My tapers always include intensity. That probably means - as I think you suggested - that my VO2max blocks could benefit from a sustained workout, and I probably shouldn’t test without some kind of shorter effort or opener workout prior to. ---
**Author:** ![anthonylane](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/anthonylane/32/7098_2.png) [@anthonylane](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/anthonylane)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 8:15pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1810 "2021-03-18T20:15:30Z")
> [@4ibanez](#): > > Like you said, you could still be tired or flat. 100 TSS is pretty low, so you’re probably recovering well, which puts the body in a “rest and digest” state where hard work is pretty unpleasant. > > I’m currently limping through a very easy recovery week. Not doing anything other than Z1 until a long Z2 on Sunday. I suspect next Tuesday’s workout is going to feel grim. I think you’re spot on. Recovery week after the first real block of a new season is always a reminder. I also did a 300 TSS gravel race simulation ride to cap off my 5th week and probably over-cooked myself a bit. > [@kurt.braeckel](#): > > I’m always stale coming out of recovery. Case in point when I just had that bad TTE test after 10 days of easy riding after VO2max where the longest interval I did was 5 min… then two days after that did 1x60 at 5W higher than last time I did it, and then nailed 3x25 at 7W higher than last time. Weird things happen when training, glad it worked out for you. I also enjoy carrying a bit of load or intensity otherwise I go flat. ---
**Author:** ![RONDAL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/rondal/32/7721_2.png) [@RONDAL](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/RONDAL)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 8:35pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1811 "2021-03-18T20:35:00Z")
I’m mid-week recovery week right now and I feel absolutely WRECKED. I just bailed on a 90min endurance ride because i’m just too flat. Hopefully feel OK by the weekend when i was hoping to test ahead of VO2 block starting next week. ---
**Author:** ![4ibanez](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/4ibanez/32/41353_2.png) [@4ibanez](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/4ibanez)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 8:49pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1812 "2021-03-18T20:49:29Z")
> [@kurt.braeckel](#): > > I’m always stale coming out of recovery. Case in point when I just had that bad TTE test after 10 days of easy riding Same here. 2 consecutive TTE tests after recovery weeks: - 1st was the Tuesday workout after easy week = 25 mins TTE. - 2nd was the Saturday after normal work week = 60 mins TTE. I always test on the 1st Saturday of a block now. ---
**Author:** ![kurt.braeckel](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/kurt.braeckel/32/116719_2.png) [@kurt.braeckel](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/kurt.braeckel)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 8:50pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1813 "2021-03-18T20:50:10Z")
> [@anthonylane](#): > > Weird things happen when training, glad it worked out for you. I also enjoy carrying a bit of load or intensity otherwise I go flat. > [@RONDAL](#): > > Hopefully feel OK by the weekend when i was hoping to test ahead of VO2 block starting next week. I’m not sure how to do this just yet, but I want to start playing around with WHEN I test and HOW I execute recovery weeks. For example, rather than a full blown easy week, after this intensive endurance block, I think I will execute a significant taper week. So, for example, rather than just dialing back entirely to zone 2 for a week, I might step back like this: Work week: M: 3x30/3 @ 92% T: Easy 60-90min W: Tempo/TAN tempo or FTP intervals R: Off F: 3x18 Over/Unders :45s @ 5min power/3:00 @ 92% + 30 min Z2 Sa: Group ride or 4hrs progressive Z2 Su: Off “Recovery week” M: 1x30 @ 92% T: 45-60min Z2 W: 60 min steady tempo R: Off F: FTP/TTE test Sa: 2hr Z2 Su: Off Theory being a big step back in volume, but maintain some of the similar testing intensity. For a VO2Max block or repeatability build, I’d probably still take many days of easy riding, then come back in with some SST before doing any kind of relevant testing. But I think I might respond pretty well to this kind of “rest” week considering it mirrors my A race tapers that have worked well in the past - that is, similar intensity but much reduced volume. > [@4ibanez](#): > > I always test on the 1st Saturday of a block now. This could be another option, keeping the full back off to Z2 week intact then delaying testing until I’ve done some work, but am still relatively fresh. ---
**Author:** ![PattyP](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6a8cbe/32.png) [@PattyP](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/PattyP)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 9:17pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1814 "2021-03-18T21:17:47Z")
You can not see aerobic effect direct after a restweek. Its normal that your HR is higher after a restweek because your heart is also a muscle and when you are well rested your heart react easy up and down. Normally in a training block you are a little bit fatique. Thats why it’s difficult to get your real max HR. ---
**Author:** ![jarsson](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/jarsson/32/69117_2.png) [@jarsson](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/jarsson)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2021, 10:08pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1815 "2021-03-18T22:08:03Z")
I have to introduce some kind of intensity like tempo during rest week. Without that my next week feels horrible. I realy feel better on the bike after some intensity. I have had similar experience with FTP test after being rested - felt horrible and cooked. After one hard workout usually everything back to more normal state. [Previous page](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979.md?page=85) [Next page](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979.md?page=87)