# Sweet Spot Progression

**URL:** <https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979>\
**Category:** Training\
**Created:** [January 3, 2020, 12:34am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979 "2020-01-03T00:34:30Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 83

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**Author:** ![jarsson](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/jarsson/32/69117_2.png) [@jarsson](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/jarsson)\
**Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 4:24pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1729 "2021-03-11T16:24:13Z")

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> [@jacemano](#):
>
> Although I’m doing seilers 4x8 instead of say a hard start approach

If I could only suggest something to take into consideration- these shorter, vo2 max intervals gives you also (in my experience that may vary) a lot of benefits with shorter power, bursts during the ride etc. Longer vo2 max are more similar to threshold in terms of “muscular” feeling. So I would vary different styles especially that you are incredibly strong with steady state. Only thing to consider not saying what is bad and what is good approach - I am bad at shorter efforts and those shorter, intensive vo2 maxes helps a ton.

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**Author:** ![jacemano](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/jacemano/32/30118_2.png) [@jacemano](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/jacemano)\
**Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 4:46pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1730 "2021-03-11T16:46:58Z")

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The reason I’m going this route is actually I’m naturally anaerobic. I was having real trouble with short intervals where I can over smash and introduce too much fatigue.

If building vo2max is about time in zone and only that, this way is definitely more effective (for me)

Put it this way, Tuesday I did 3 intervals and then got cramp. I still was over 90% of hr max for 17 minutes!

Now if I did the opposite (Spencer + 2) let’s say, I’d be surprised to hit 14 minutes

I am introducing a bit of a hard start though (just start spinning super fast at the start of the interval)

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**Author:** ![RONDAL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/rondal/32/7721_2.png) [@RONDAL](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/RONDAL)\
**Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 5:01pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1731 "2021-03-11T17:01:32Z")

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Have you thought about doing one of each a week (if you are doing 2 VO2/wk) where you do a longer VO2 and a shorter VO2 so that you touch both ends of it?

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**Author:** ![jacemano](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/jacemano/32/30118_2.png) [@jacemano](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/jacemano)\
**Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 5:07pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1732 "2021-03-11T17:07:01Z")

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Honestly, no. My focus isn’t power for this block, just purely TiZ. I figure if I deal with that bit, I can worry about pvo2max when crits start in April

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**Author:** ![PattyP](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6a8cbe/32.png) [@PattyP](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/PattyP)\
**Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 5:58pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1733 "2021-03-11T17:58:38Z")

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Saturday i will do 4x 4.45min Vo2max on Zwift. ERG mode or not?

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**Author:** ![velocoach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c2a13f/32.png) [@velocoach](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/velocoach)\
**Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 6:03pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1734 "2021-03-11T18:03:09Z")

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I would say if you’re doing hard starts or KM style, no erg mode. If you’re doing a standard hold X% of FTP for the time, then I guess it doesn’t really matter

(I’m normally anti-erg mode in just about every situation, though)

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**Author:** ![PattyP](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6a8cbe/32.png) [@PattyP](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/PattyP)\
**Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 6:05pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1735 "2021-03-11T18:05:17Z")

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Yes me to also anti ERG, i think i will try with hard start, because i believe that vo2max must be real hard and be driven by heartrate in stead of power. So fast as possible heartrate high and use the power to hold the heartrate in the right zone.

What do you think about this?

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**Author:** ![velocoach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c2a13f/32.png) [@velocoach](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/velocoach)\
**Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 6:22pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1736 "2021-03-11T18:22:58Z")

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In the old Kolie Moore Podcast Wisdom thread, there was some really good information about the Hard Start vo2 max efforts that he suggested, and that I believe a large portion of people in this thread are referring to. I’ll put some info here, even though it’s not a Vo2 thread, per se, and a lot of this may be common or repeated knowledge (the hard-start thread isn’t the same protocol, but it’s similar…). There was a lot of good info lost in that other thread…  
The key points were getting total time of efforts around 20mins. Can progress by shortening interval durations rather than extending (going harder):

- Higher than average cadence (110-120rpm unless you have an unusually low rpm)
- Start hard, and go all-out. Power will fade, but don’t worry about it.
- It may take a little bit of getting used to. It took me into my 2nd session before I didn’t start _too_ hard. I might recommend starting out more conservatively on the first 1-2 and then continue to go “all-out”. Remember this is all-out during not only the sets but also the entire workout. If you do a “max effort” you would (should) be cooked. So keep the entire workout in perspective.
- Cues are in your breathing. If you are breathing like a fish out of water, then you are doing it right. If by the latter intervals, you are pushing just as hard but not breathing as hard, you probably need to start _less hard_ next time.
- Recovery for as little and as much time as you need. The longer RBI the more anaerobic contribution you will likely have on your next interval, so keep it as long as you need but not too long (don’t worry too much about this… I did 1:1 personally, but it’s okay if it’s longer or shorter)
- Use HR as a description rather than a prescription during the workout. Cadence, breathing, feeling like you’re going to pass out ( 🙂 ) are better cues than HR or power on how you are doing.

With all that being said, I think the best quote is from the Hard Start thread 🙂 :

> [@Hard start VO2max intervals](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/hard-start-vo2max-intervals/48175/141):
>
> Don’t get what all the fuss is about. Go hard at the start. Do your best to hang on for the duration. Fin.

Anectdote/note re power: Personally, I found my power ends up around 120+% of FTP for the =\<5min intervals, but during the interval I didn’t look at power at all. Just kept cadence high and kept pushing as hard as I could. Kolie Moore said that some people have power end up below FTP, but that’s not what matters in this case…

Here are a couple of my workout files. These are all descriptive, the only thing I personally paid attention to on my device was cadence. My FTP at the time was 280 if I remember right

 ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/8/a/8a59b7e73cfe840949388e40bd1085b5d48091f8.png)

 ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/1/c/1c319b12195900ae6af59d589507d8afff46fe46.png)

 ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/5/3/5372ff5b64c8d2007892d03030443642932de963.png)

 ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/0/1/01517db9620d7d902519afa4b75e8a5bfbdd010b.png)

 ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/f/d/fd95ad2e4777de62b59c68cc17cbf83e286bbdb5.png)

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**Author:** ![PattyP](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/6a8cbe/32.png) [@PattyP](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/PattyP)\
**Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 7:34pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1737 "2021-03-11T19:34:50Z")

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Thank you, really helpfull. I will start with 5x3min i think thats better to maintain for the first time. Optimized intervalls give 4:45 but thats without hard start. I will progress to that. I will start with 4min rest.

I know it is offtopic, but i think this topic is at the moment more than SST…a lot of knowledge people here…

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**Author:** ![velocoach](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/c2a13f/32.png) [@velocoach](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/velocoach)\
**Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 8:32pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1738 "2021-03-11T20:32:10Z")

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> [@PattyP](#):
>
> I know it is offtopic, but i think this topic is at the moment more than SST…a lot of knowledge people here…

Absolutely, and it’s one of the more friendly and helpful places of the forum/internet compared to the usual bashing and arguing 😄

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**Author:** ![RONDAL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/rondal/32/7721_2.png) [@RONDAL](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/RONDAL)\
**Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 9:11pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1739 "2021-03-11T21:11:29Z")

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> [@velocoach](#):
>
> it’s one of the more friendly and helpful places of the forum/internet

i like this thread because there is ~10 of us all following a similar philosophy, all at similar stages of training, all sharing what we are learning as we go, and supporting along the way.

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**Author:** ![sam.fuller1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f8ce5/32.png) [@sam.fuller1](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/sam.fuller1)\
**Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 10:08pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1740 "2021-03-11T22:08:27Z")

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Agreed. I sometimes go back through the thread to read through discussions because there’s so much quality content in here

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**Author:** ![hdas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/90db22/32.png) [@hdas](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/hdas)\
**Post date:** [March 12, 2021, 2:29am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1741 "2021-03-12T02:29:41Z")

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> [@velocoach](#):
>
> Absolutely, and it’s one of the more friendly and helpful places

> [@RONDAL](#):
>
> all sharing what we are learning as we go

If I could ask you guys…Given that SS Zone is wide (88%-94% FTP)…do you guys structure your progressions starting at the bottom (88%) and working your way up and THEN stretching out the length of the interval?. Or picking the mid point 91% (or top) and staying there…Thanks

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**Author:** ![RONDAL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/rondal/32/7721_2.png) [@RONDAL](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/RONDAL)\
**Post date:** [March 12, 2021, 2:50am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1742 "2021-03-12T02:50:56Z")

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For simplicity I did all of my SST workouts at 90%. Doing at 94% turns it far too close into a threshold effort.

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**Author:** ![RONDAL](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/rondal/32/7721_2.png) [@RONDAL](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/RONDAL)\
**Post date:** [March 12, 2021, 4:06am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1743 "2021-03-12T04:06:17Z")

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> [@hdas](#):
>
> do you guys structure your progressions starting at the bottom (88%) and working your way up and THEN stretching out the length of the interval?.

To more fully answer this question; if you are following the method most of us have been in this thread of Extensive-\>Intensive-\> VO2  
then the goal is always for the first part longer even if it means lower % (ie. stick at 90% rather than trying to increase). When you get your TiZ up to 200% of TTE, then that’s a good mile marker to move to INTENSIVE where you want to be working at or slightly below threshold. Then you hammer higher power for VO2.

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**Author:** ![DaveWh](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/davewh/32/13120_2.png) [@DaveWh](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/DaveWh)\
**Post date:** [March 12, 2021, 4:09am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1744 "2021-03-12T04:09:31Z")

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> [@RONDAL](#):
>
> For simplicity I did all of my SST workouts at 90%. Doing at 94% turns it far too close into a threshold effort.

The zone I use is 85-90%. Same reason - I want sweet spot to be sweet spot, and stay far enough away threshold. Plus, I’m doing longer intervals. My usual SS workout is 1x60 at either 85% or 90%. 85% if I feel tired. 90% if I feel good.

I’ve also started to do sweet spot with 30 seconds at 120% every 5 mins. The goal of this is to better train lactate clearance. Same idea as over-unders, but staying overall in SS intensity vs threshold.

 ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/7/4/744e2b5d42669e11f50bc1bb46c785f2bf6f9f5a.jpeg)

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**Author:** ![kurt.braeckel](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/kurt.braeckel/32/116719_2.png) [@kurt.braeckel](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/kurt.braeckel)\
**Post date:** [March 12, 2021, 4:12am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1745 "2021-03-12T04:12:00Z")

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I started at 90%, pushed to 92% once I hit my TiZ goal. This time, I’m starting at 92% of my current FTP because that’s progression from last go-round, rather than doing the same exact power for the same workouts, but I’ll follow the same method - push my TiZ out to (hopefully) 2 hours by the end of the block. We’ll see how THAT goes. Might be overkill. 90 min is likely enough for me right now.

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**Author:** ![DaveWh](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/davewh/32/13120_2.png) [@DaveWh](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/DaveWh)\
**Post date:** [March 12, 2021, 4:20am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1746 "2021-03-12T04:20:59Z")

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> [@velocoach](#):
>
> It may take a little bit of getting used to. It took me into my 2nd session before I didn’t start _too_ hard.

I have a tendency to start too hard because of high anaerobic contribution, so I created erg mode hard-start workouts to better control/dial-in my effort level. Here’s my most recent. Works well at getting the HR response and RPE that I want.

 ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/1/e/1ebccae71460862be543756b4bcd988eba824b23.jpeg)

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**Author:** ![jacemano](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/jacemano/32/30118_2.png) [@jacemano](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/jacemano)\
**Post date:** [March 12, 2021, 4:51am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1747 "2021-03-12T04:51:50Z")

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Would love to know how much time in zone you’re getting for that.

So I’ve not been hard starting and for instance this is what I did yesterday:

 ![Screenshot_20210311-223050_Chrome](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/5/1/51b11b73b3c8eb9687e50cccfba65b706f5afe3a.jpeg)

But then to go with this

 ![Screenshot_20210311-211749_Chrome](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/a/4/a4b4243c428e4d8a2192309cd4fd376618a62e86.jpeg)

Seems like a quality vo2max workout to me

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**Author:** ![DaveWh](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/davewh/32/13120_2.png) [@DaveWh](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/DaveWh)\
**Post date:** [March 12, 2021, 5:15am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/sweet-spot-progression/26979/1748 "2021-03-12T05:15:34Z")

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19:15 above 90% max HR.  
11:12 above 95%  
Maxed out at 98%

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