Recent Flo podcast with Steve Neal

I am starting my base training period this week. In 2023 I am at 11h/week training with a CTL of 84 for the moment. My approach will be an 8 weeks endurance build. So try to average between 11-14h a week and build progressive rides. I will track TSS, TIS in WKO5 in order to be progressive as possible.
Goal is to begin with 3 kinds of rides. Z2 (60-65%), Z2+ (75%) and LT1 rides. This for the first 2-3 weeks. Depending on time available I will use one of those 3.
Then I will start to incorporate some tempo work (lower SST). Maybe as stated in the video by Tim Cusick (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9cMtn3pe8A&t=1581s). Also progressive build in TIZ. These sessions will be also in the same genre as Steve Neal’s tempo approach.

I will not try to focus on intensity to much but every 8-10 I will do maybe a more intensive ride (outdoor MTB, Zwift race, …). Not sure what workouts could be doable in this time period. Some advice always welcome here ;-). So this will be my first 8 weeks approach. After that I will go to a more Intensive Aerobic phase. My A-event is within 6-7 months so still have time.

I don’t use TR for the moment but thinking of restarting with TR and use the AI FTP detection maybe and also the PL’s to track my tempo, SST progressive building. Or is this overkill?

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@batwood14 you mentioned that you were planning to do Steve Neal type of training this past fall. Did you stick with it? How did it turn out?

Anything new that you learned (or re-learned)?

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I did stick with it, and am still doing it. I’m transitioning to incorporating Vo2 work and my training will be a little more polarized starting in 2 weeks due to some spring races coming up.

As to how it went, I’m really happy with my progression. The caveat to this being that I caught Covid in early December and it knocked me off the bike for 2 full weeks, and it took me another 2 full weeks to handle a full week of training — and then I may have gotten a little too aggressive in trying to get back to my pre-Covid metrics (which is an alchemy of power-to-HR-to-TTE) and had to step back and take a rest week and a few unplanned rest days. Overall, the 2 week illness cost me about 6+ weeks until I was back to my pre-Covid metrics. It was super frustrating.

With all that being said I’ll try to give you tangible numbers measuring progression — and I did not change my FTP:

— Key workout of the week is Tuesday (I take Monday and Friday off). I started with 3x30s and kept my HR at or below 84% HRmax. If I couldn’t achieve this, I lowered my watts and finished the workout under the prescribed BPM and didn’t progress until I could achieve the all the intervals with BPM at or under this number. ** Pro tip: if my HR wasn’t at least 10 BPM under the 84% of HRmax during the first interval, it was going to be way over at the end.

— When I hit the key metrics metrics I moved to 2x48, 1x105 and then 2x60. When I was able to work for 90 consecutive minutes at <84% AND complete the full 2x60 I moved my power floor up 8-10 watts and started the progression over

— Thursdays I do 4x20 … but since I know where my HR is going to be at a certain power, this workout is more about RPE, and being able to complete the full 4x20 (or more) after doing ~2 hrs at Tempo on Tuesday and 90-120 mins Z2 on Wednesday.

— I started the whole progression in October attempting 3x30 with HR cap at 233W.

— Yesterday I finished my first full 3x30 under the 84% cap at 253W

Todays 4x20 was predictably hard, and I didn’t complete it but I schedule the same workout every Thursday so I can track my RPE progression and what I can complete … which is a nice way to track progression (or lack thereof) week-over-week.

Given the hole that Covid blew in my schedule, and my associated “over zealous” mistakes I don’t think I can be anything but thrilled with the results. My training was a metronome before Covid, and I’ve improvised a little here and there since, but mostly stayed right on track.

I feel like a rock solid rider right now, and now I’m giving myself about 6-8 weeks of a build to touch up the high end stuff before 2 races in April🤘

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Great job. I hit my highest numbers doing Steve’s workouts a couple of years ago. I never went past 4x20, and mostly did 3x20s. I just don’t have the desire for 2+hours on the trainer for a 3x30 or more.

I also never even come close to 84% of max at tempo power. If I did, I’d be doing threshold work the whole time.

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Thank you for the update and session breakdown. That’s quite helpful.

I didn’t start my training in earnest until mid Jan. I am trying treating this year as an experiment after not much riding since mid 2023 due to back issues. Those are mostly resolved. After a few weeks of just getting some hours in my legs, I’m going to give this a try.

Good luck with your races.

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No problem! … let me know if I can be helpful, or if you have any other questions about structure.

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Intervals.icu creates some interesting graphs on efficiency.

For example, I have been looking at various moving average lines. For my purposes, I think the 21 day moving average line is going to become something I use to gauge an effect of my training.

I am going to drop one of these 83% HR capped tempo interval rides into my weekly schedule starting soon. I will start with round bald (3x20@85%FTP). I have no doubt that I can complete that workout, but as I have never done it before, I am curious to see if I need to reduce the power at any point to respect the HR cap.

If I can complete it within that HR cap, I will move on to longer intervals (3x25 Round Bald+1 or 3x30 Spruce+3). If I can’t, I will repeat it until I can.

My concern with workouts like these with longer flat power intervals is that I find them a bit monotonous. I am interested to see how the ride feels and how its data looks compared to Gammon, a workout I have done quite often. Last time I rode it, I was over 83% HRmax for 4’33" and over 73% for 1h31’

Did my map/aerobic test today.

3min 25W MAP test. Best 1min was 321W. Then did a small 5min aerobic test around 80% max HR (145bpm). Was about 238W. So 74% of MAP.

So my tempo sessions I will try to do around 235-240W and HR between 144-148.
Was not super fresh for this test. Max HR during MAP test was 171. 10 beats lower as my highest HR this year…

Within a few days will do a 1hour aerobic test at this wattage to see what my HR will do…

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I did my first Round Bald workout today and I have a question

I set the 83% HR cap, but stayed within it without the need to wind the power down at any stage.

First 20 mins average 139 (78.5%), peak 143 (80.7%)
Second 20 mins average 138 (78%), peak 143 (80.7%)
Third 20 mins average 138 (78%), peak 142 (80.2%)

For those of you more familiar with the protocol, what do I do next?

Do I do longer intervals at the same power? Or do I repeat this ride and nudge the power up a touch to use more of the HR capacity (which is all of 4 bpm) up to the cap?

ETA: Looking at the data, the peak appeared at just after 10 mins of each interval - that was when I got out of the saddle for a few seconds, took a drink and then settled back in to it. Maybe I need to sit still for the whole interval.

I would go to longer interval duration first. I pushed out to 1 x 90 minutes. Then fall back at a higher power

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Yes…This protocol is focuses on TIZ. So extending your time at tempo/SST (with HR cap). Building your aerobic engine like that. Go longer, and go more per week. Build back-to-back days… After 6-8 weeks, re-test. And then hopefully go with higher power.

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Bumping up against the HR cap is not a goal. That is just a guardrail for those that are unfit. The true goal is to be riding at the “balance point” (determined through metabolic testing). Since most of us cannot do that, ride at your tempo power.

If one listens to Steve’s original podcasts he has riders doing more days per week and then back to back days. Go by how well you are recovering. I mostly did 2 days per week. The times I tried 3 per week, I wasn’t recovering enough.

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Thanks for the pointers, much appreciated and I will think about whether to first push out the interval length, or to go for back to back days of 3x20.

On the balance point, I found this Jan 2022 post by Steve Neal on fasttalklabs about a regime which you just know would be massively effective

"The other with fitter athletes was to ride at what I call Lactate Balance Point or where muscle o2 sat would be just stable to slightly rising over long sessions over an hour, the athlete would hold this heart rate until power would decrease by 10% or they would reach 2 hours. I would repeat this for 3 days in a row, complete a recovery day, complete a strength day and coordination drills on the bike day, repeat.

With the above example, it is basically how I used to train athletes for about ten years, likely my most successful time as a coach. The program was a little dynamic in nature as some athletes could only do 2 days in a row and follow the rules while others could do 5. It was likely the best way to build an endurance/tempo base I have really ever tried, but it was monotonous. Although it worked I was worried and athletes becoming mentally stale (which never seemed to happen, but I was worried nonetheless."

One aspect of these protocols that isn’t talked about much is training load. These 60-90 minute long tempo/sweet spot rides build a lot of training load. Last time I did this protocol, I did it as a build for about 2 months (jan through march) and then hit my all time high FTP (recent years) in April. This was after removing the training load and getting fresher.

Neal seems to be often training longer distance mountain bikers so training the ability to ride at this power for some hours seems to be the goal.

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I did the 3x20s for about 2-2.5 months before I was not enjoying 90-120minute trainer sessions. I get bored on a trainer after 60-75 minutes. I couldn’t imagine doing these rides outside without long flat stretches of road (which I don’t have).

Did some testing. 3min step MAP 321w. Good part lower then a 1min ramp so for this approach better to use the 3min test.
Yesterday 30min aerobic test, 236w with HR around 79% max. So that is around 73-74%. But this was outdoor so little harder to get a constant pace.

I think I can put my tempo zone around 240w at 80% HR Cap. That is around 75% of MAP. So we have some work to do.

Jack Burke, doing the rounds after setting KOMs on Stelvio, Alpe d’Huez and Mortirolo, was coached by Steve Neal from May 2024, using Xert

I learned that from a recent Fasttalk podcast that I found quite interesting.

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Thanks for the heads up. I was going to skip that podcast because the title sounded stupid!

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