# Recent Flo podcast with Steve Neal **URL:** \ **Category:** Training\ **Created:** [September 10, 2019, 6:15am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765 "2019-09-10T06:15:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![apond58](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f9ae1b/32.png) [@apond58](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/apond58)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 11:13pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765/50 "2019-09-10T23:13:59Z")
I’d like to add my recent experience to the value of lots of high end endurance training with minimal Threshold or VO2Max work. Feb March and the first week of April I was doing SSBHV1 (6 weeks no missed WOs) and SSBHV2 (about first 4 weeks and no missed WOs) before I went to South Carolina and took part in the Assault on the Carolinas 100km fondo. Here’s the ride. [https://www.trainerroad.com/career/apond58/rides/53797711-morning-ride](https://www.trainerroad.com/career/apond58/rides/53797711-morning-ride) and here are the summary stats. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/6/2/62160fda4210eaf804c5ac08d4896016c562031d.png) On that trip I had an accident and broke the femoral neck in my hip which was reattached with 4 screws. Then 6 weeks on crutches. I decided to do a lot of Z2 (based on MAF HR of 75% of HRMax and/or power at 75% of threshold) riding with very little intensity during my recovery. I kept the FTP at the pre-accident 270 watts. So TSS is comparable before and after the accident. I could crank up the weekly TSS because I wasn’t getting fatigued from the constant SS intervals and I trained 7 days per week unless I missed some days due to work travel. Here’s my weekly TSS before and after the accident. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/f/f/ff02334771b49b7537ceadbdfdd0749c4cc2d098.png) Beginning in July I did one outdoor group ride per week which was a ride with brief periods of high intensity. I might also do a Zwift group ride for 2 to 3 hours on Sat and/or Sun at mostly Z2 with brief periods at Threshold, but rarely above. A few Saturdays and/or Sundays in the month leading up to the fondo, I would do both the Zwift ride and the outdoor group ride for a 5 to 5.5 hour day. Here are the summary stats from a Fondo of 180 kms I completed this weekend. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/3/d/3d241f15148c674f2deb09a847aadfd92da156a6.png) I felt strong throughout the ride and started to fade only in the last 20 kms. Comparing the summary stats of both rides I would say the Z2 riding was very effective because it allowed me to ride more hours without the fatigue of SS training. Below are the details of the ride. [https://www.trainerroad.com/career/apond58/rides/62036288-pwc-fondo](https://www.trainerroad.com/career/apond58/rides/62036288-pwc-fondo) ---
**Author:** ![christhornham](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/christhornham/32/42980_2.png) [@christhornham](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/christhornham)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 11:54pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765/51 "2019-09-10T23:54:05Z")
> [@BespokeBarry](#): > > Anyone listen to this. All about raising FatMax, potentially very interesting but I felt the podcast could have done with serious editing; veered off in way too many directions > It’s about raising FatMax and then we have this discussion on how not all Vo2 intervals are the same; and the host clearly was out of his depth > Linked to the (IMO) harsh complaint about Jonathan interrup[ting Chad too much; clearly Jonathan also knows a lot and wants to share. This host (apologies) does not - sometimes a host knows more than they appear and act dumb to make the guest better explain things. Alas in this case it’s clear the host does not know about excercise physiology and thus cant ‘check’ Steve when conversation veers… > > Anyway I digress; a lot of what Steve said made sense; and I agree too many people chase ever higher FTP numbers when a better route (for say a Fondo riding) would be increasing power at sub threshold levels. > > But very confused on some of the specifics; Steve mentioned ideal FatMax was Threshold power (!) but then also tempo power and then a great goal was endurance power. Clearly these are 3 wildly different zones > > Also in terms of practical application he recommends 3\*20 min sweetspot but at a 83% HR cap (is that .83 of HR Max?) > > It’s a very interesting podcast; but left me with more questions than answers I’m the host of the show you are referring to. First, let me answer some of your questions. Ideally, getting FatMax wattage to threshold is the goal. Secondly, trimming at 83% is 83% of cycling max HR. About your complaints. I do an enormous amount of research before every show but I simply cannot become an expert on every topic. That’s the reason we have an expert on the show for every topic we cover. We cover a massive depth of information on this show. I do my best to understand each concept as well as possible to provide a useful interview for listeners and I hope that works out most of the time. We’ll keep doing what we can to improve the show. Take care, Chris ---
**Author:** ![christhornham](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/christhornham/32/42980_2.png) [@christhornham](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/christhornham)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765/52 "2019-09-10T23:56:55Z")
> [@sarafxds](#): > > Yes, I listened to it and was intrigued by the 3 x 20 minute SS capped at 83% HR (which I interpreted to be v MaxHR) > > I am in a gap in phases at the moment so have programmed this in for tonight using Workout Creator, at 88% FTP and will use the +/- buttons to turn down the intensity to cap my heart rate. I’ve felt for a while after MTB and cross racing that I now have too much top end and my base has suffered so this sounds like it could be a good experiment until November when my TR Base phase is scheduled to start again. > > Anyone else planning to give this a try? > > p.s. Totally agree about the host, he often seems to just ask the next question on his list when there is a more interesting follow up that could be made - a little frustrating. We definitely have a list of questions built. This helps us cover as much information as possible in a short period of time. I do try to ask questions if they come up naturally but please remember that there will always be some element of what questions arise in your mind may not arise in my mind. I’ll keep remembering to ask questions if they make sense in the flow of conversation. Chris ---
**Author:** ![christhornham](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/christhornham/32/42980_2.png) [@christhornham](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/christhornham)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 12:03am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765/53 "2019-09-11T00:03:58Z")
> [@christhornham](#): > > We’ll keep doing what we can to improve the show. Bob Seebohar. He’s a nutrition specialist. Our next interview is with him. It’s all about altering your diet to improve Fat Max wattage. ---
**Author:** ![sarafxds](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/sarafxds/32/5564_2.png) [@sarafxds](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/sarafxds)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 1:00am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765/54 "2019-09-11T01:00:22Z")
Really looking forward to this one! ---
**Author:** ![T\_Field](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/t_field/32/28414_2.png) [@T\_Field](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/T_Field)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 1:37am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765/55 "2019-09-11T01:37:33Z")
I’ve noticed the same thing regarding VO2 efforts after spending the summer doing tons of low intensity riding as part of a polarized plan. ---
**Author:** ![Trippy](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/trippy/32/14322_2.png) [@Trippy](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Trippy)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 2:20am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765/56 "2019-09-11T02:20:15Z")
Great listen. While listening, I wondered if the HR cap was similar in principle to what Trevor Connor breifly mentioned on Fast Talk recently. Trevor was really vague on it so hard to know from what I’ve heard. ---
**Author:** ![Jayacher](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/jayacher/32/7721_2.png) [@Jayacher](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Jayacher)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 2:32am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765/57 "2019-09-11T02:32:34Z")
Ding ding ding!!! That is why this training method is ridiculous. Also 83% is WAY too specific to be taken seriously. Before anyone comes at me with “but my results!!”, just know that **the plural of anecdote is not data**. \*\*EDIT FOR FURTHER CLARITY: I’m not saying that there isn’t decent foundations to this training method. You’ll find that in most training methods there are kernels of truth that can be applied to different people depending on their goals, the time they can dedicate to training and their life situation. Personally, I believe that TR is also guilty of this by massively overestimating some of their user’s training levels with the Ramp test. If this works for you, great. But I have a real issue with coaches postulating that “it’s all about your fat max!” or “It’s all about your FTP!” etc etc etc. The truth is usually somewhere in between. … Besides, everyone knows that it’s all about your VLAMax anyway (joking) ---
**Author:** ![Stringwise](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/stringwise/32/8504_2.png) [@Stringwise](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Stringwise)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 3:48am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765/58 "2019-09-11T03:48:44Z")
> [@Jayacher](#): > > Ding ding ding!!! That is why this training method is ridiculous. What do you suggest? ---
**Author:** ![Jayacher](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/jayacher/32/7721_2.png) [@Jayacher](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Jayacher)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 5:02am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765/59 "2019-09-11T05:02:49Z")
Ride your bike in a way that is specific to your event/s. Learn what each type of interval does physiologically, and apply that to a periodised plan with progressive overload depending on what suits your event. Repeat until you hit your genetic limit. ---
**Author:** ![martinheadon](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/martinheadon/32/7705_2.png) [@martinheadon](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/martinheadon)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 5:15am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765/60 "2019-09-11T05:15:06Z")
> [@batwood14](#): > > I worked with him for two months before the race, and we didn’t do any intensity for the first month. None. In the month leading up to the race, we did it once a week as I said above. Also, there was very little need to taper because I never really was fatigued. > [@batwood14](#): > > The one thing Steve has hammered into my head is that these short, spiky seemingly anaerobic bursts are not really anaerobic. They’re aerobic. And while I felt I had to consistently drill my 3-4 minute power, doing so limited my ability (due to fatigue) of more broadly developing my aerobic system. So, counter-intuitively, by working at endurance pace for longer, or working at lower sweet-spot/high tempo range while just touching up my high-end power it actually increased my ability to drill 3-4 minute repeats and recover from them. I didn’t really believe this to be the case until I experienced it. That’s really interesting, although I wonder if the key point here is that you were “touching up” your high-end power. It sounds like you already had a pretty good FTP / MAP, it was just about tweaking the top-end while avoiding fatigue. I wonder what Steve’s approach would have been with someone who came to him 6-12 months before a target event with a 250 watt FTP wanting to get to 300. Would it still be all built from below using tempo / SS work before a single month of once-weekly high-intensity before the event? (I know Steve doesn’t use FTP to set zones - just using it to express it in easily understood terms) ---
**Author:** ![a59a2e9a2645dbb](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/a59a2e9a2645dbb/32/100578_2.png) [@a59a2e9a2645dbb](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/a59a2e9a2645dbb)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 7:49am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765/61 "2019-09-11T07:49:02Z")
It took listening to the first podcast on athletic potential that made me realize that TrainerRoad low/mid volume plans have too much VO2Max work. And now that I have a coach I am much more effective and motivated going into each training block. I don’t doubt the TR plans can be beneficial, but I have yet to meet anyone who can do a full base, build, specialty (the whole 6 months worth) and not reach some form of a burnout rather than taking charge of their A races. I like the idea of well prescribed aerobic work, this is an endurance sport after all to meet my goals. I also do see the benefit of an increase in VO2Max work closer to A race time, but certainly not 6 months prior. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Hallas](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/john_hallas/32/1213_2.png) [@John\_Hallas](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/John_Hallas)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 8:55am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765/62 "2019-09-11T08:55:13Z")
> [@batwood14](#): > > use That is quite a workout. I suspect the last 10 minutes at a lower cadence was hard work ---
**Author:** ![dhaines83](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/dhaines83/32/16238_2.png) [@dhaines83](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/dhaines83)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 10:03am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765/63 "2019-09-11T10:03:07Z")
> [@christhornham](#): > > We’ll keep doing what we can to improve the show. You do an absolutely fantastic job of keeping the guests on point - even when on the odd occasion where the guest is a little bit … left field of mainstream science ---
**Author:** ![batwood14](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/batwood14/32/30318_2.png) [@batwood14](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/batwood14)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 12:24pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765/64 "2019-09-11T12:24:36Z")
> [@martinheadon](#): > > I wonder what Steve’s approach would have been with someone who came to him 6-12 months before a target event with a 250 watt FTP wanting to get to 300. Would it still be all built from below using tempo / SS work before a single month of once-weekly high-intensity before the event? Just to be clear, I didn’t start working with Steve to have good results in a race in 2 months…I started working with him to have good results in races next year. The fact that I had a good result 2 months after beginning to work with him was more or less a bonus. He even told me when we started working together that I shouldn’t expect miracles this summer (ie 2019) - but he did tell me that if I stick with it for 12 months I’ll be a completely different rider - that’s what I’m ultimately going for. As for how his training methods might differ - or not - based on the scenario above…I’d be speculating. Although, I do feel they wouldn’t be THAT different. That is my opinion though - and I’ll continue to say that I don’t represent Steve in any way and I’m not an expert. But if you knew the athletes he’s worked with…and what their results have been. Well…it’s massively impressive. That’s for him to share, though. ---
**Author:** ![Supermurph19](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/supermurph19/32/3304_2.png) [@Supermurph19](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Supermurph19)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 1:07pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765/65 "2019-09-11T13:07:17Z")
$599 per month to be coached, is that right? Jeez, that is a lot of money. ---
**Author:** ![MikeBikes](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mikebikes/32/7632_2.png) [@MikeBikes](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/MikeBikes)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 1:30pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765/66 "2019-09-11T13:30:41Z")
To me (as someone with a pretty big anaerobic work capacity) this approach is mostly about limiting AWC involvement in what is supposed to be aerobic training, thus really limiting aerobic improvement over time. I can “test” much better than reality. I can even complete workouts at the tested FTP, but my gains slam into a wall after 4-6 weeks. Looking over this winter and springs data, what really happens is my FTP heart rate goes from mid 160s to mid-high 180s, i.e. i get better at suffering. I’m going to give this a try this winter as everything else I’ve tried over the years leads me to the same FTP year after year (I mean the same FTP as when I first tested 6 months after getting on the bike and just riding around as an adult). It’s really demotivating. ---
**Author:** ![sryke](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/sryke/32/72539_2.png) [@sryke](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/sryke)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 1:30pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765/67 "2019-09-11T13:30:54Z")
@batwood14 : were you given any instructions on fueling your tempo work? Or for before and/or after eating? ---
**Author:** ![BespokeBarry](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/bespokebarry/32/7746_2.png) [@BespokeBarry](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/BespokeBarry)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 1:42pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765/68 "2019-09-11T13:42:29Z")
1:1 is not scaleable; there is a reason the TR founders will all become multi millionaires on exit ! ---
**Author:** ![batwood14](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/batwood14/32/30318_2.png) [@batwood14](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/batwood14)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2019, 1:43pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765/69 "2019-09-11T13:43:49Z")
> [@sryke](#): > > @batwood14 : were you given any instructions on fueling your tempo work? Or for before and/or after eating? No. He gave me advice on how to fuel for my race, though. I think (not sure) we’re going to get much more into diet as we go. Since my race was two months away I don’t think he wanted to start messing with too many things at once. I kinda recall a conversation about fueling where he said something like, “for the time being just do what you’ve been doing” – something like that. [Previous page](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765.md?page=2) [Next page](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/recent-flo-podcast-with-steve-neal/20765.md?page=4)