Ramp Over-Tester taking a new AT approach

My Last ramp was in July, since then my PL levels are shown below:

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I’m not training for anything cycling related, no real interest at moment to progress upwards. I have no TR plans in the calendar and basically use TrainNow. Aim is to stay around this level with reduced workouts, 6 hours a week down to 2 hours a week (3 to 4 workouts) for other fitness activities.

I could take a ramp and maybe exceed my current FTP but think this would reset my PLs to level 1.0. I like the option for them to reduce. If levels do start to drop to much I’ll have the option to add an hour or two of TR workouts per week to get them back up…

It’s nice not having to Ramp again knowing that when I hit TrainNow I presented with options for achievable/progression workouts which I find are in the right ball park. What I do then depends on how I feel.

If I was an over tester I think I’d do what was previously mentioned, manually reduce FTP by a percentage and do a week of different workouts to set your levels and take it from there.

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That shouldn’t happen anymore. After my last ftp change they drop about 1-1,5 points.

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It’s funny that we agree on one aspect (Ramp test does not equal FTP) but disagree on another (knowing FTP matters). I’ll agree that AT doesn’t totally fix not knowing ones threshold power range, but am firm that the progression level aspect of AT dials in a much better knowledge of fitness than knowing FTP.

Plenty of people have a great sense of setting up successful training according to their own definition of FTP. But it is highly nuanced that way. Progression levels are just simply a better objective metric across more than just one zone. And as AT improves in assigning progression levels it will get more precise.

People successful at setting up their training based on knowing FTP won’t see much, if any improvement, because they could already do it. It is those that don’t get the nuances that will be benefited. And that’s a pretty big crowd. I’m kind of in the middle. I figured out how to adjust things based on knowing threshold. But it’s a helluva lot easier for me to pick workouts now with progression levels. And if I ever need to get a really good range for FTP from that, I can.

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They imply it every time they say “My FTP…” after talking about a ramp test result. It happens all the time and gives the wrong impression.

First, that requires buying into the idea the incrementally progressing ‘Workout Level’ in TR’s more threshold oriented plans is better than the more widely used, evidence based coaching approaches. Been there, done that, have the T-shirt. For me, the TR approach (pre-AT, with my own adaptations) didn’t work as well as the more widely used coaching approaches.

Success at my key events, from pacing to seeing better results, is largely based on my maximum sustainable (40-70 minute) power. That fits with the Coggan definition of FTP.

The science behind the ramp test has shown it to be a very good predictor of max aerobic power (MAP), a proxy for pVO2max or all-out 4-6 minute power. I see clear value in using the ramp test if I don’t want to do an all-out 4-6 minute effort.

That‘s like complaining that you can‘t put together your new IKEA shelf, but you refuse to read the manual. The importance of adapting your intensity/FTP to match your abilities or even your daily form is emphasized in the workout texts. It is a topic on many blog posts and has been covered many, many times in the podcast.

Even if you come from another training software or had a coach, you‘d be taught the same thing: there exists no simple formula to infer FTP from whatever test you use that holds for everyone, be it ramp test, a 20-minute test or an 8-minute test. You can‘t leave your brain at the door when training.

That‘s implying that TR is not basing their approach on evidence, which is evidently not the case. AFAIK you are using plans from Fascatcoaching (correct me if I am wrong). On one of their first podcasts their boss Frank explained this point quite clearly: in his mind, most coaches are (for various good reasons) ahead of the science, i. e. successful coaches often use approaches that are not scientifically validated — yet.

To me TR‘s AT is just such an approach: it wouldn‘t be possible to compile such a dataset for a scientific study, and it seems to me that they are very much evidence-based, simply because their approach requires them to be evidence-based. It doesn‘t mean their method works, they have to be careful not to simply reproduce their own biases, etc. etc. But to imply TR‘s approach isn‘t evidence-based isn‘t corroborated by the evidence :wink:

Now that doesn‘t mean AT and TR’s training plans work or that they work better. But the numbers that they have released last week seem to suggest they improve on what TR had before: much higher completion rates, higher gains, etc. Yes, there are caveats like selection bias you need to consider, but that was made explicit in the podcast. That is, TR is aware of them. Would I prefer more openness when it comes to benefits and results? As a scientist and nerd, absolutely. But I understand why they are being cagey.

Coggan‘s definition of FTP is that it is an indirect measurement of your lactate threshold in a field test; he distinguishes between FTP and LT2, because they are obtained through different measurement protocols and thus, aren‘t directly comparable.

In AFAIK his very first work where he developed this, he already said that while a 40k TT is a good way to infer your LT2, but I think it is a misunderstanding to claim that “this is Coggan‘s definition of FTP”. Coggan‘s definition evolved over time and when you look at the scientific literature, you often see FTP20 or so to indicate the testing protocol they have used. The idea being that numbers obtained with different protocols aren‘t directly comparable. That was Coggan‘s impetus to distinguish between FTP and LT2 in the first place.

Coggan immediately recognized that a 40k TT is impractical for a number of reasons, one of them being the mental and physical fatigue incurred by a long, all-out effort. But another is that not necessarily all cyclists train for TTs, as a dedicated crit racer it might not make sense to focus on long TT-style efforts. That‘s how the 20-minute and later 8-minute tests were born. And eventually the ramp test. AFAIK many exercise scientists these days sidestep the issue by just measuring MAP and not bothering with FTP, because the ramp test is simpler and more consistent. I reckon consistency is an issue with less experienced cyclists who haven‘t done 20-minute FTP tests before, perhaps some of the gains are then due to them getting better at pacing and testing.

IMHO I don‘t see any clear winners or losers. If you find a testing methodology that you like/prefer, and from which you can determine “your FTP” (as in the base power level by which to scale your workouts), then stick to that and remain consistent. But all methods have error bars that are big enough to produce “FTPs” that do not quite scale your workouts right. That‘s simply because the adjustments you might need to make are small, comparable even to the accuracy of your power meter. Like I wrote before, recommendations for the FTP20 test range from subtracting 5–15 %. Is it worth discussing what the “correct number is”? Personally, I‘d focus on emphasizing that you should find out by yourself what the right number for you is.

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Note sure why that is. It’s different flavors of the same thing. IIRC, it was Coggan who said power zones are descriptive and not prescriptive. People might think they are riding threshold when it is really V02, but if things are timed out properly it doesn’t matter too much. The fundamentals of getting stronger/faster are overload combined with proper rest. There’s lots of different types of intervals/workout styles to get to the same place. The problem before was burnout mentally and physically cause people thought if a workout was assigned it was supposed to be doable. When in reality, you had to know how to adjust intensity. Getting there required some work and understanding. There’s guard rails up now that help tremendously.

If you already know how to do it you’re not gonna get a big benefit out of anything TR can offer. If you don’t, it’s gonna be way better than just going out and riding. I’ve gotten to a point where I don’t need it - but I appreciate the simplicity of everything and the varied workout library. Everything is really nicely done already with a lot of room to still refine and grow.

Nothing wrong with this approach at all. If you understand how to do it then there is no reason to change.

Agree 100%. The anchor point for TR when a person is using the ramp test is MAP, not FTP. Drives me nuts :wink:

But it doesn’t matter now how close your are on either of those now, whereas if one had an inflated FTP then threshold and V02 work was frustrating as hell. Now? Just pick a semi-reasonable FTP input. If you have no idea, take a ramp. If a person does have a decent guess, then they’ll likely know enough to look at what’s prescribed pretty easily and have an idea if it is too hard or too easy. And if they are wrong, it is super straight forward to know how to adjust and get on track within a few workouts.

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TR uses the term science based, so I used evidence based for others. Not trying to imply anything, just wanted to distinguish between

  • threshold approach
  • pyramidal approach

and let TR use the science based moniker.

Sorry I can’t help it after reading TR’s claims that the ramp test is “most efficient and accurate way

Fun tip - search for the word accurate and let the impact sink in. Please we don’t need parse that, while fun it will just bore everyone :wink:

And FWIW

Dr. Coggan's March 2003 definition of FTP

“Given the limitations of laboratory testing as discussed above, probably the easiest and most direct way of estimating a rider’s functional threshold power is therefore to simply measure their average power during a ~40 km (50-70 min) TT. This highly pragmatic approach is justified by laboratory research showing that the power a cyclist can generate for 60 min correlates very highly with, but is slightly greater than, their power at LT (defined as a 1 mmol/L increase in blood lactate over exercise baseline) (2). The precise value obtained for threshold power using this approach may vary slightly depending on the exact distance/duration of the TT, the terrain, the athlete’s level of motivation and ability to pace themselves properly, etc. However, such variability is likely to be small relative to the breadth of the defined training levels and the somewhat arbitrary division between them. Furthermore, the simplicity of the approach means that the test (which doubles as a level 4 training session) can readily be repeated if the data obtained are considered suspect, or if there is reason to believe that the athlete’s fitness has changed significantly. If for some reason (e.g., phase of training) it is considered undesirable to have the athlete perform a full 40 km TT, data from a shorter TT can be used instead, although this may require slight adjustment of the exact percentages of threshold power for each level and/or application of an appropriate correction factor (e.g., threshold power = average power during a 20 km TT multiplied by 0.93). Again, however, given the breadth of the specified power levels, day-to-day variability in performance, and individual differences in the precise shape of the power-duration curve, the real effect of employing such a correction factor may simply be to convey a false sense of precision.”

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Dude…I get it. Doesn’t matter to me other than it’s annoying. But precision in language is important and does them a disservice when a large portion of their customer base get confused / frustrated when their ramp score doesn’t change or goes down after all the work they’ve been doing. Get comments like “why did my FTP go down/stay the same?” Answer is, it probably didn’t, at least if you’ve been putting in the work. TR would have a lot more happy customers if they stopped misusing FTP, which is completely unnecessary for the system they’ve developed anyways (and which evolved to where it is in part because people don’t read the manual as you are on my case for).

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I don‘t get it. To me it just comes across as a cheap shot at TR rather than a substantive discussion.

TR does have a subset of users electing training plans with other power profiles, so they can benchmark one against the other. I wouldn‘t be surprised if the results were nuanced and not clear-cut.

I don‘t think their blog post is misleading. Yes, they have made a choice, and they give their main in the introductory paragraph: they state the purpose (“most accurate for use with TR”) and give the reasons (hurts less, no pacing required, shorter). There is no “best” test, what is best depends on your circumstances and the trade-offs. Different field tests have different trade-offs. The recommended training protocol for a by-the-book TTE test requires a combination of a ramp test (so that you infer with experience what number to shoot for) and your actual TTE. Sounds kinda like the ramp test informs the power to shoot for, i. e. give you an for what your FTP might be :wink: But that test takes two days and incurs quite a bit of fatigue. Is that something you want to repeat every 4–6 weeks? Probably not. Is it something beginners (to structured training) are going to enjoy? Nope. I reckon it‘d scare many away.

We should really keep in mind that the blog post is aimed at relative beginners, which means you‘d leave out many caveats and qualifications that a more inaccessible, but more accurate scientific article would feel compelled including. Now the ramp test might not work well for you. But then TR still offers a 20- and an 8-minute FTP test.

But overall, it seems that at least part of the scientific community also use a ramp test to gauge fitness, i. e. how well a particular intervention or training protocol is working.

Funny that you posted that snipped, that was the exact quote from the exact document I was thinking of. I was referring to this bit:

This is in my mind (one of the) first places where Coggan makes the idea of measuring FTP with shorter, more easily repeatable test explicit, which have less impact on the athletes training (since they incur less TSS due to testing). We don‘t have to have a philosophical argument whether a full 40k TT is a “better” test, afterwards the FTP20 test became the accepted standard for a long while. And I think at least in part, FTP20 has been succeeded by ramp tests. Not just a lot of the training software use a ramp test by default, parts of science does, too. Of course, scientists would not report an FTP-calculated-from-MAP, they‘d just give you the MAP. Experts know that it is merely one proxy of many for fitness.

I think it is just a very, very tiny, but vocal minority that “gets confused” about the language. Most of the “confusion” is them not having prior knowledge of structured training, i. e. them being beginners. There are so many factors here that have zero to do with the ramp test. The athlete could have lost 10 kg with little or no improvement in FTP. Will they be faster than before? Absolutely. What about getting used to testing? Yeah, that‘s another factor. If you have never done a ramp test, then this might have been the hardest thing you have done in sports since school.

With PL I think TR has a more fine-grained way to display and compare your fitness and your abilities. You have an easier way to understand that if you train a specific power zone, you will get better at it, but it need not imply improvements in the other power zones. Is that perfect? Nope. But then nothing ist.

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I test high on the ramp test too. The following is based on my experience training with TR and using AT:

I think it’s ok to manually adjust your ftp to keep your threshold progression level to at least 3.5, maybe 4. Anything lower than that, and you’re probably not getting enough time in zone, and you may not be working the zone you are intending to work. Once your threshold level reaches the 7s, I think it is safe to say you are at least at the FTP you have set, and it might be a good time for another ramp test. TR is great, but I think they have set the progression range from 1-10 a bit high. You can be more confident that you are targeting the correct zone if you keep it closer to the middle of that range.

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Hahaha…do a forum search of “My FTP went down”. It’s not small. The statement/question comes up regularly. And forum users are not a complete set of TR users.

And doesn’t matter if it is new users or not. It’s just wrong to say it, so why continue with it?

How do you know that the ramp test is the root cause in all of them? Like I said, a common story from the forums is when the athlete has significant weight loss during training. That’s not a problem of your FTP test protocol. Because it seems plausible that in many cases your FTP remains roughly stagnant, but you increase your specific power (W/kg).

I think you are spot-on, seems very sensible.

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@OreoCookie , @bbarrera , @jjmc : please, please stop with this arguing about test protocols and the definition of FTP. You can beat that horse on dozens of other threads.

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Ramp test isn’t the root cause. Ramp test is a great idea. How TR talks about what the ramp test yields is the root cause.

@Wheatstraw53 i’m not arguing about any of those things. I’m arguing we can stop talking about those things cause they don’t matter anymore and TR should change their vernacular accordingly.

This aligns with my thoughts almost perfectly. I’d caveat that if one is highly trained it’s OK / very possibly better to just bump the FTP input a couple percent and see how it goes. Or, depending on what part of training cycle one is in to keep the FTP input the same and try to keep elevating the progression levels.

So my protocol for the highly trained athlete: if in base/build and level 7+ threshold at end of block, manually raise FTP input a few percent and see how it goes. If in a specialty block, just continue with pushing up your existing specialty focused progression levels. You can always bump the intensities during the workouts and at this point in the cycle you’ve got a great idea of fitness - knowing progression levels is less important. If constantly bumping specialty workouts from the start of it, then I’d consider manual change just for convenience. But then you’re hoping the system gets the knock downs right and I don’t have enough experience with that to know how well it works.

If someone is not highly trained, they should simply do ramp tests as prescribed/ you suggest.

Edit to say that it isn’t only threshold levels that matter though. If one cares about other power zones that are maxed out (~10) while threshold is less than 7, then it’s perfectly fine to bump FTP input to adjust the PL back down in zones they care about. That just raises up the power targets for those workouts without having to manually bump in workout. That’s convenient when using Erg.

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I personally don’t see any reason not to trust AT, if you’re honest and consistent with your survey results.

Last weeks podcast was quite informative about how to answer. I think some people are reluctant to say “Very Hard” or “All Out” when that was the reality.

Anyway, I’m the opposite in that (shockingly as I tend to follow sustained power plans), the ramp test gives a figure appropriate for VO2 max but under does SS/ Threshold. I’ve been happy with the results so far. Even this morning, after commuting yesterday (and associating with outdoor workouts) it adjusted down the over and unders to something productive but not as big a jump as it was showing yesterday morning!

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This approach should work if AT functions the way we’ve been led to understand it. Your SS/threshold workouts and VO2max workouts should adjust relative to each other where the SS/threshold workouts end up at a lower progression level vs VO2max.

This is what I’ve been doing manually for a couple of years now, and have gotten pretty dialed in on what’s manageable for me vs not. FWIW, I no longer do threshold workouts. I either do long SS intervals or VO2max. Threshold is too draining for me, and I can get the physiological benefits with other workouts.

Will be interested to hear how this goes for you.

Good points. I usually find the workouts in the last week of a microcycle really challenging. However, it is usually the first couple of vo2 intervals when I’m struggling. Once I have adjusted to the workout nature/intensity I somehow manage to finish (and sometimes not :-))

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10-day report! Here’s the workouts I did. There was also a little running and some short z2 rides.

Geiger -1. Productive. Solid feeling effort, marked as Hard, 2.8->2.9.

Three Sisters. Stretch. The plan looked a little odd–this was a Threshold 3.4, and the next few Saturday Threshold workouts were all in the 2s. I thought about adjusting it, but in the spirit of this process, I just proceeded as is. I was actually pretty intimidated, since the efforts were similar to Palisade and Warlow and other workouts I’ve struggled with in the past even at lower wattages. But since there were only three sets, I got through it OK, with a lot of focus and concentration. Marked Very Hard. 1.0->3.4. I was a little surprised that it brought my level all the way up to the level of the workout, and it adapted the following Saturday workouts up to 3.5 and beyond. Sooooo, we’ll see how those go!

Carson -3. I’ve done well with the Carson variations in the past and this felt pretty good until the very end, when I started to get overheated and my heart rate rose quickly. Marked Hard. 2.9->3.1.

Spruce Knob -2. Nice steady sweetspot efforts, felt really good. Moderate, 3.1->3.2.

Interestingly, the different survey results haven’t had different effects on my progression levels. I don’t have any opinion about this so far; it’ll just be interesting to see whether that pattern persists over time.

This weekend is another tough-looking Threshold workout, Cloudripper -2.

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