# Quality over Quantity vs. 80/20 (or Chad vs. Matt ;)) **URL:** \ **Category:** Training\ **Tags:** polarized\ **Created:** [October 16, 2018, 7:11pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962 "2018-10-16T19:11:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![DaveWh](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/davewh/32/13120_2.png) [@DaveWh](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/DaveWh)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 2:19am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962/418 "2020-01-28T02:19:32Z")
> [@bbarrera](#): > > nice to see the slow twitch vs fast twitch response to training info in an organized presentation. The differences are striking. As a fast twitcher, looks like biking is the wrong pastime for me šŸ˜ ---
**Author:** ![bbarrera](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/bbarrera/32/14734_2.png) [@bbarrera](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/bbarrera)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 2:20am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962/419 "2020-01-28T02:20:40Z")
and why I see fast/easy gains with tempo and sweet spot šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![DaveWh](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/davewh/32/13120_2.png) [@DaveWh](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/DaveWh)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 2:25am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962/420 "2020-01-28T02:25:14Z")
Fast twitch: ā€œTends to be beat up by and does not adapt well to threshold workoutsā€ šŸ¤£. > [@SSB II is killing me](https://www.trainerroad.com/forumt/ssb-ii-is-killing-me/25862): > > Finished SSB part one. The workouts seemed reasonably turned to my ability. Took ramp test at start of phase 2 and got 6 watts higher. Seemed like a small enough but reasonable gain based on how I felt when I stopped. So I start phase 2 and I canā€™t get through a whole workout without turning the intensity down to 95% half way through. Some of that might be mental or maybe environment based (like maybe I need more cooling fan power idk) but Iā€™m running my HR up to 185 regularly and my max is 190ā€¦ ---
**Author:** ![bbarrera](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/bbarrera/32/14734_2.png) [@bbarrera](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/bbarrera)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 2:33am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962/421 "2020-01-28T02:33:41Z")
you play the hand dealt! ---
**Author:** ![DaveWh](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/davewh/32/13120_2.png) [@DaveWh](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/DaveWh)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 2:44am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962/422 "2020-01-28T02:44:44Z")
I did for 25 years playing rugby! ---
**Author:** ![AJS914](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@AJS914](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/AJS914)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 2:55am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962/423 "2020-01-28T02:55:51Z")
You just have to train the aerobic engine correctly (long slow distance) and then keep your top end tuned up and beat the competition to the line. Itā€™s like Sagan vs Bernal - one can win the Tour and the other can win Paris-Roubaix or a flat stage of the Tour. You have to pick the event that matches your talents. ---
**Author:** ![DaveWh](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/davewh/32/13120_2.png) [@DaveWh](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/DaveWh)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 3:17am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962/424 "2020-01-28T03:17:00Z")
> [@AJS914](#): > > You just have to train the aerobic engine correctly (long slow distance) and then keep your top end tuned up and beat the competition to the line. Yeah - Iā€™d be a good sprinter if it wasnā€™t for the ankle injury I got years ago playing rugby. I canā€™t put much torque any more through my ankle, so thatā€™s not an option. Too bad, as Iā€™d love to try some crits. ---
**Author:** ![G650](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/g650/32/3746_2.png) [@G650](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/G650)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 11:52am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962/426 "2020-01-28T11:52:45Z")
Me too my friend! ---
**Author:** ![G650](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/g650/32/3746_2.png) [@G650](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/G650)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 11:58am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962/427 "2020-01-28T11:58:22Z")
Yep, middle distance track runner and American football defensive back here. ---
**Author:** ![DaveWh](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/davewh/32/13120_2.png) [@DaveWh](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/DaveWh)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 1:36pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962/428 "2020-01-28T13:36:52Z")
The differences quoted in the sides are striking. However, I was a little disappointed with the recommendations on the kinds of training that works best for fast twitchers. To paraphrase - and a little tongue in cheek - donā€™t do too much volume and include long easy breaks between hard intervals. This does not sound like great training for a cyclist, contrasting with the slow twitch recommendations that look very aligned with what youā€™d think of for cycling training. There was also no mention of long low cadence tempo/SS workouts to improve fatigue resistance (which the INSCYD guys recommend as the best way to reduce VLaMax). Anyways, if nothing else, it does indicate that training can/should be quite different depending on rider physiology. There is an opportunity for TR to help athletes understand this better, and potentially use information on rider profile to tailor training plans. ---
**Author:** ![bbarrera](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/bbarrera/32/14734_2.png) [@bbarrera](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/bbarrera)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 3:58pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962/429 "2020-01-28T15:58:20Z")
Striking? It looks more like a presentation for coaches to understand and fine tune workout prescription based on what a coach is seeing from actual training data and athlete feedback. Iā€™ll join in your pity party (LOL) and take the other sideā€¦ ā€œraces are won with sprints at the end so my slow twitch dominate fiber type dooms me to failureā€ šŸ˜‰ ---
**Author:** ![AJS914](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@AJS914](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/AJS914)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 4:22pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962/430 "2020-01-28T16:22:18Z")
Those were just slides so we donā€™t know what the presentation included. I searched for it but couldnā€™t come up with it. My guess is that the Inscyd stuff by Sebastian Weber might be more advanced. I think the take-away for me is that this kind of stuff confirms that polarized is the way to go and that fatiguing myself trying to do threshold and sweet spot everyday wonā€™t work for me. Iā€™m going to think about the points about micro intervals or over/unders with Z1 rest periods for fast twitchers. Iā€™m planning on doing Inscyd and full metabolic testing in the next couple of months. Iā€™ve got a connection at my local university. It will be interesting how that goes. ---
**Author:** ![DaveWh](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/davewh/32/13120_2.png) [@DaveWh](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/DaveWh)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 4:39pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962/431 "2020-01-28T16:39:22Z")
> [@AJS914](#): > > I think the take-away for me is that this kind of stuff confirms that polarized is the way to go and that fatiguing myself trying to do threshold and sweet spot everyday wonā€™t work for me. Based on the INSCYD stuff, Iā€™d say pyramidal is better vs polarized - i.e. to include tempo/low-SS workouts to improve fatigue resistance (but avoid much threshold or high-SS). Edit - Ah - sorry @bbarrera - I replied to wrong post. Meant for @AJS914 ---
**Author:** ![bbarrera](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/bbarrera/32/14734_2.png) [@bbarrera](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/bbarrera)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 4:41pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962/432 "2020-01-28T16:41:26Z")
> [@AJS914](#): > > trying to do threshold and sweet spot everyday wonā€™t work for me. trying to do intensity everyday is a problem, no matter if it is vo2 work, threshold, sweet spot, or tempo. ---
**Author:** ![DaveWh](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/davewh/32/13120_2.png) [@DaveWh](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/DaveWh)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962/433 "2020-01-28T16:49:25Z")
> [@bbarrera](#): > > Iā€™ll join in your pity party (LOL) and take the other sideā€¦ ā€œraces are won with sprints at the end so my slow twitch dominate fiber type dooms me to failureā€ šŸ˜‰ Thatā€™s the one good thing about fast twitchers šŸ‘šŸ¼ ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/1/9/1982246d5c8eb76aac7d65a280bd6b29fdc7e0ed.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![AJS914](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@AJS914](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/AJS914)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2020, 4:49pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962/434 "2020-01-28T16:49:53Z")
Last year I did a huge base period of 12 weeks - lots of LSD and one group ride per week which includes about 30 minutes of threshold and 30 minutes of SS. I got a huge boost out of the base miles and around week 8 I was flying and breaking all my PRs. After base I mixed in some SS and tempo intervals but I didnā€™t get a giant boost out of it. FTP did seem to gradually rise another 20 points towards the end of the year. For Nov/Dec I just cruised, cutting back to 6 or 8 hours per week, took a 2.5 week break at the holidays and now I find Iā€™m flying again at the end of January. I guess itā€™s my January peak. šŸ™‚ In the last two weeks Iā€™ve been ramping up LSD volume (11 hours last week) Iā€™ve gotten one strava KOM, three strava top 10s on climbs, and a new PR on another 15 minute local climb. Iā€™m going into base at a way higher level than last year. I think ā€œbaseā€ will be shorter (8 weeks) and at a higher volume this year and then Iā€™ll mix in the tempo/SST and then a short block with VO2max and/or over-unders. ---
**Author:** ![scotscyclist65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5fc32e/32.png) [@scotscyclist65](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/scotscyclist65)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 10:06am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962/435 "2020-01-31T10:06:45Z")
@AJS914 Just out of curiosity, what % of your ftp range are you riding your lsd rides at? Cheers ---
**Author:** ![AJS914](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@AJS914](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/AJS914)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 2:59pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962/436 "2020-01-31T14:59:35Z")
I donā€™t have power outside yet (only on the smart trainer) so I have just used Seilerā€™s prescribed 65-70% of HRmax. Iā€™m going to do metabolic testing this spring so Iā€™ll learn my true LT1 (aerobic threshold). For me that is 177 x .70 = 124bpm Hereā€™s an interesting thing that happened last spring. When I first started riding LSD, 124bpm was excruciatingly slow - like 12mph. I was used to riding comfortably at 17-18 and had no problem doing group rides averaging 18-20. So, it was really hard to train at 12mph but I kept with it. Now, 9 months later, I find myself cruising around 17-19mph at the same 124bpm. I also frequently find myself doing LSD at 115bpm because it still represents a comfortable pace. 124bpm actually feels like Iā€™m putting pressure on the pedals if you know what I mean. Frank Overton describes this sensation as zone 2. Bottom line, my aerobic power curve or lactate curve has obviously shifted towards the better. Iā€™m making more power at every sub threshold aerobic HR. Itā€™s not reflected in a high FTP (though my FTP has gone higher) but it feels like I have way more endurance. When motoring along in group rides I often see my HR at say 135bpm which is tempo. Last year, my HR would have been 145-150 for the same effort which is sweet spot. ---
**Author:** ![scotscyclist65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5fc32e/32.png) [@scotscyclist65](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/scotscyclist65)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 5:43pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962/437 "2020-01-31T17:43:13Z")
Interesting thank you šŸ‘ ---
**Author:** ![scotscyclist65](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5fc32e/32.png) [@scotscyclist65](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/scotscyclist65)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2020, 6:33pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962/438 "2020-01-31T18:33:23Z")
Iā€™m thinking about giving Seilers 3 zone model a shot. Iā€™ve got about 16 weeks until I have a granfondo. My ftp is 200 and Iā€™m 55 this year. Iā€™ve been cycling for the last 5 years with the last 2 being structured. I have no racing goals at all, but just want to be fit enough to ride the odd granfondo with my friends and my son, although heā€™s a much better cyclist than I am šŸ˜‚ (320w ftp). Iā€™ve been reading over Chadā€™s @mcneese.chad excellent power zone spreadsheet and I can see that z1 is about 65-78% of ftp. Would I still see improvements if I do my z1 rides at 60-70% of ftp? As Iā€™m not sure I could hold 78 or even 75% for up to 4 hours. Thanks [Previous page](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962.md?page=20) [Next page](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/quality-over-quantity-vs-80-20-or-chad-vs-matt/3962.md?page=22)