Apologies if this has come up elsewhere in the forum. If there is a better place to discuss this, please advise.
As we’ve all heard, the TR team is working on a version of adaptive training that will utilize rider data — like Power, HR, and data from other sensors for non-TR specified rides. In other words training rides and races that are not associated with a TR outdoor workout (and its accompanying PL data).
While waiting for this to happen, I started to wonder if/when TR may also include other data, like recovery data, such as HRV, sleep data, etc. It appears that Frank Overton / FasCat Coaching is working on this puzzle as well. They are even promoting an app (coming soon?) that can be used with both their training plans and coaching plans.
Wondering if anyone else has looked into this and or knows more about it.
I was listening to the FasCat pod the other day and with him smacking us in the face with the new solution every second answer I wondered if there’d be some discussion about it.
I find Frank to be a bit over the top with the self-marketing, but am fully aware that’s the entire point of the Pod. If it works as he says it’ll be a compelling option.
I’m very much looking forward to the Red Light/Green Light and do wonder the same if it’ll use HRV/Sleep/Stress etc data as available from Garmin etc.
I still think how you feel will still trump anything machine learning comes up with. The body has all these amazing feedback loops to let you know how you are doing. You just need to listen.
I agree with many of the previous points made about listening to one’s own body and understanding when to go hard, or back off. I learned some of this more quickly and effectively when working with a coach. In that regard, I can see the benefit of people having some other reference to use when self-coaching.
Areas like recovery, nutrition, and glucose monitoring are likely to be some of the next big ‘innovation’ spaces. However, I crave more at this stage to see TR make full, effective use of rider-based/sourced training data in what is already a promising move with Adaptive Training.
I seem to remember podcasts or other media talking about how sometimes you perform your best on days where you feel sluggish at first, etc.
I have noticed too, I have ridden where at first I did not want to ride, but then set PRs all over the place on a ride.
I think “listening to your body” is helpful, but SO subjective. Everyone hears differently.
As an example: fitness is a thing, for sure. But, there is some research that seems to show that top athletes can suffer longer and this allows them to win. They are hurting just as bad but keep going. Added up over time, this mentality of pushing that little bit more on every climb, every sprint, could result in massive gains over someone who doesn’t ride because they’re “listening to their body”
My point in all this is that I am a believer in these apps and technology that allows me to look at my data objectively. Now, I’m not a machine that will just ride until I break because the machine tells me I can, but looking at the data objectively allows me to see the bigger picture.
Everyone hears something different when they listen to their bodies.
I really wonder how they will get the data on carb intake. It must be something that you input later. But the accuracy of self reporting that will be not great. Same with timing and absorption of that nutrition.
Really, I just think that goes back to the basics. If you want to be able to manage a high training load, you need to fuel well, sleep well and take care of your body. The less of that you do, the less well you can train. HRV data is a good objective way to know if you are over doing it so you can calibrate your subjective evaluation. Nothing new here.
Its reading my Garmin workouts but I have an Apple Watch for HRV and thats not supported yet. I’m not recording sleep, so even when Apple Watch is supported I’ll have to look into sleep tracking in order to feed the app. Or buy a Garmin 955
While I’m not feeding it sleep/HRV yet, it is using OTS and Load:
Interesting. Aren’t training plans included in the subscription? The copy on Fascat’s app page says it includes all training and meal plans, like you could apply plans in the app which would flow through to TrainingPeaks.
post edits: I’ve updated some of my comments to clarify I’m using trial mode at the moment (I have a FasCat coach), that I don’t have a supported wearable (AW4 is getting old, looking to buy a Garmin 955), and therefore the app’s Optimization score only has load and OTS from completed workouts.
This app pulls together a more holistic view by including all the off-the-bike stuff that impacts recovery, adaptations, and ability to consistently train - sleep, HRV, and nutrition.
Refreshing to see a training app bring into focus the 22 hours I spend off-the-bike.
I really like the holistic view that this OTS app is bringing in. Honestly if I was month to month with TR and OTS pulled in data from an Apple Watch I would have to think hard about giving it a try. I am not sure how accurate the OTS score will actually be, but I would be interested in seeing and trying.
I am hoping that this is the direction that TR is going in also with their app and ML development. Listening to the podcast and putting together the tidbits that @Nate_Pearson has mentioned with red light/green light, wanting to get HRV data in, WL2, training time per day, etc… It seems like TR should have something like this in the future - and with a much larger data set for ML to pull from.
“Optimize by FasCat” is the app’s name in the iOS App Store.
I’m just getting familiar with it, day 2, and even without feeding it my HRV and sleep it provides some useful info.
OTS is an improved version of TSS, but accounts for fatigue and coasting. Its using my power data to calculate, and along with load provides a score a simple guideline to training. Recommendations are based on the score:
0-30 = Ride more / train harder
31-60 = Train more consistently
61-120 = Your training and recovery are balanced. Keep following the plan!
121-150 = Focus on recovery and keep following the plan
OTS is an improved version of TSS (Training Stress Score), which has been widely used for a number of years.
So why a new metric? Two reasons:
OTS accounts for the fatigue that accumulates during an exercise session. Your long ride feels harder during the fourth hour than it did during the first hour because your threshold has decreased during the ride. Not all four hours are counted the same - even if done at the same average power - because they are not the same.
OTS accounts for periods of coasting and does not provide training “credit” for that time.
These improvements enable coaches and athletes to measure training load and balance recovery with greater precision.
Dreaming about what a company could possibly do (anything, any company, including “large data sets”) is not how I go about deciding what tools to evaluate and use in the here and now. And what about the data itself? I’ve been benefiting from Garmin 530 use of ML on my HRV, HR, and power data for over 3 years. The future is here. Decide if you want to embrace it or not.
Best to ask that on the FC forum, I’m in trial mode at the moment and its a) pulling in completed workouts from Garmin, giving me an OTS score based on load and yesterday’s workout. The OTS score represents a recommendation. For example today OTS is 139 and from that article above translates to “121-150 = Focus on recovery and keep following the plan”
Just read through the FASCAT thread. It’s clearly an app only for the annual all access subscribers. It also looks like he’s only using Whoop/Oura data for now. That’s way too high a cost for me. I’ll keep watching though. It’s an interesting concept for sure.
