NorCal vs Legion

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I think the problem with the whataboutism and saying rider X did this and wasn’t punished or rider Y did similar is that they are different teams/people, where as Williams (and by extension Legion) have history of repeated warnings/punishments.

Also I wonder if being under different ruling organisations (Uci and various crit leagues) has any bearing on it?

I’m not American nor a crit racer so not got a horse in the race just someone who enjoys watching bike racing.

I still think you’re trying to have a separate discussion here. If you want to claim that the rules are being applied in a selective or even racist manner be my guest, but you should try to find examples from the same sanctioning body and same types of events

Saying that the USAC suspending a crit racer while the UCI did not suspend a world tour road racer means that things aren’t being fairly applied is not a logical conclusion IMO

I’m not sure that’s what you’re trying to prove though.

If your point is that this is a inherently dangerous and aggressive sport and that actions like what Williams did in the video above are acceptable…well on that we definitely disagree

Whether these things happen all the time or this was a one off by Williams I’m of the opinion that removing this behavior is vital


Yeaaaahhhh was supportive of Legion for many years but I’m over it. There has been a few too many incidents involving them and I don’t think that’s coincidence.


As the quote from Goldfinger goes: 'Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it’s enemy action '.


The problem with all whataboutism is it is a deflection tactic used to avoid/sidestep criticism, rather than address core issues being discussed.

As someone noted above…that’s not to say the issue being introduced in whataboutism arent ALSO worth being discussed. But…as everyones mothers (hopefully) told them, two wrongs dont make a right. You cant absolve bad behavior by scouring the globe looking for worse.


Alpecin rightly received a ton of criticism for how they rode in the Tour this year. They were dangerous. Also dangerous in the Vuelta, but those were down to stupidity, not malice. Not sure what you’re talking about with Remco?

Another point worth mentioning just to set the comparisons apart…world tour races are professionals. Even in most of the races legion races in…I believe most of the people there are amateurs, or pros in only the loosest sense of the term. As I assume most have to go to work in the morning…racing against homicidal lunatics isnt what they signed up for.

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Did Legion invent the idea of a train with a sweeper at the end? (Rhetorical, I’m sure they didn’t invent anything.)

I raced for 10 years in NorCal and in France when I was in my 20s. This was 30+ years ago when Northern California was a super competitive district. This was also the day of tons of domestic pro teams like LA Sheriffs, Subaru Montgomery, Navigators, etc, +++++. We had so many US pro teams back then that it was ridiculous.

None of these teams road like Legion - big train with riders at the tail pushing the competition out, into the wind, or into the gutter.

I went to hundreds of big crits on the west coast and saw these teams race every weekend. I NEVER once ever saw the kind of shit I see in the pro crit scene today. I NEVER once saw yelling or a fist right after a race.

I used to think that Legion was a force for good in the dying US racing scene but over and over they just show that they don’t care about cycling or anyone else. Legion is a vanity project for the Williams brothers. It’s a miracle that they could keep big sponsors like Specialized on board for this long. I wonder what it take before nobody wants to work with them.


The Littleton incident goes beyond just dangerous riding. Both Williams brothers stopped and were yelling at the crashed rider while he was in the ground waiting for medical attention. Then Justin starts arguing with and yelling at spectators. Check trackstandmemes on IG for footage. But as far as I can tell, still no sponsor repercussions.


I’m just really surprised they were never sent to the hospital. They’ve been incredibly lucky they haven’t messed with someone who suffers no fools… but they seem to be pushing their luck.


Judging by the one video it was not the clearest…but if it was as bad as it looked, and there were witnesses, why would there not be police there pressing assault charges?

Specialized is probably ok with it, it’s how they operate in the bike biz after all.


The funny things it isn’t world tour level, is there much to win anyway in this races?

E.g. Justin and some pals joined the Zuricrit races, there was also one world tour rider (Stefan Bissegger who didn’t win much things, he is good on national level but okeyish on international levels). Stefan raced every race (fixie qualification, road bike race, fixie finals). Legion only raced the road bike race. Stefan overlapped the whole field in no time in this race - it looked like a joke. He then proceed to lead the brake away in the fixie finals and marginally lost the end sprint. (Results are here: ZURICRIT, there are videos on youtube from other teams.)


Stefan Bisseger is not an ‘ok’ cyclist! Former track world champion and European TT Champion last year, so if anyone’s going to ride away from a field it’d be him (unless Remco or Ganna fancied a random race in Switzerland :smiley: )


On a slightly different tangent — Has there been any more investigative news on the claims of riders not being paid from the crit series that L39ION hosted/staged a couple of years back?
Nor-Cal recently claimed that that issue still stands, but I don’t see that being discussed in cycling media. Or is that in the legal system now and under wraps until further notice?

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Last time someone said something about not being paid, Legion ripped their head off, so they are probably hesitant to raise any flags…

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I would hope it would be cleared up before the new Legion venture, “CRIT”. It’s basically a bunch of Legion teams fighting it out in Florida later next month.

$35 general admission and $99 VIP admission


There were a few riders (Lucas Bourgoyne comes to mind) that confirmed they were paid

Insert modified Caddyshack clip…“I ain’t paying no $35 to watch no bike race!” (IYKYK)

Get outta here with that nonsense…