# Metabolic training. What is this? **URL:** \ **Category:** Training\ **Created:** [July 2, 2023, 1:50pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001 "2023-07-02T13:50:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Clement32000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/858c86/32.png) [@Clement32000](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/Clement32000)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 1:50pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001/1 "2023-07-02T13:50:35Z")
Hi everybody ! I go to you with a question. I try to know and understand what is “Metabolic training” that the pro cyclist are doing. In exemple I have the video of tristantakevideo on YTB with pro coach of Bora Hansgrohe John Wakefield (ex UAE) and the monster session of Brandon McNulty that you can see on Strava (3\*1h at 355-360 watts). I bealive that the concept of Metabolic Training by John Wakefield are the same things than the session of McNulty. Do you have some idea of what is the goal of that type of session ? In what mmol of lactate that correspond ? Sorry for my mistakes I’m french and not perfect with English 🙃 ---
**Author:** ![AJS914](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@AJS914](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/AJS914)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 3:27pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001/2 "2023-07-02T15:27:35Z")
Sounds like long tempo sessions. For someone like McNulty, it may not be a “monster” session. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@The\_Cog](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/The_Cog)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 4:29pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001/3 "2023-07-02T16:29:02Z")
Next year’s zone 2? Sorry, I couldn’t resist. ---
**Author:** ![tshortt](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/tshortt/32/3100_2.png) [@tshortt](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/tshortt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 7:19pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001/4 "2023-07-02T19:19:02Z")
> [@The\_Cog](#): > > Sorry, I couldn’t resist. Maybe you should have. Or, even better. Use this as an opportunity to teach someone something. After all, a 360w session from McNulty is likely right around FTP, no? So what would be the purpose of an FTP session? And wonder if you can get that benefit without knowing “the lactate values”. ---
**Author:** ![kurt.braeckel](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/kurt.braeckel/32/116719_2.png) [@kurt.braeckel](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/kurt.braeckel)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 7:40pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001/5 "2023-07-02T19:40:08Z")
> [@tshortt](#): > > After all, a 360w session from McNulty is likely right around FTP, no? Two reasons I doubt this: 1) he’s 70kg. FTP is probably higher. 2) He’s not doing 3x1hr at FTP. _Maybe_ 90% of FTP. ---
**Author:** ![tshortt](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/tshortt/32/3100_2.png) [@tshortt](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/tshortt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 7:46pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001/6 "2023-07-02T19:46:11Z")
90% FTP is FTP, or close enough. He was likely doing a threshold session. Or “Zone 4” in ISM parlance. Same thing 🤷‍♂️ Also, that’s not really the point. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@The\_Cog](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/The_Cog)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 7:46pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001/7 "2023-07-02T19:46:51Z")
There’s nothing to teach, or at least not much point in trying. People would rather believe in gurus and miracle training sessions as opposed to established scientific principles like specificity and overload. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@The\_Cog](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/The_Cog)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 7:49pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001/8 "2023-07-02T19:49:55Z")
My god man…are you saying that pros {gasp} actually deliberately train in “the gray zone”?!? I thought that they were all about polarized training, intensity discipline, walking up hills to keep their heart down, blah, blah, blah. ---
**Author:** ![kurt.braeckel](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/kurt.braeckel/32/116719_2.png) [@kurt.braeckel](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/kurt.braeckel)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 7:58pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001/9 "2023-07-02T19:58:34Z")
That’s exactly what I’m saying. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tshortt](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/tshortt/32/3100_2.png) [@tshortt](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/tshortt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 8:46pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001/10 "2023-07-02T20:46:41Z")
Sorry @Clement32000. Your questions are fine but seems like there is a bit too much ego getting in the way of anyone providing anything helpful. It’s not always like this, but sometimes it’s the way it goes ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@The\_Cog](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/The_Cog)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 9:14pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001/11 "2023-07-02T21:14:26Z")
You don’t get it, do you? There are no secrets, only innate talent and lots of hard training (of the right type relative to one’s goals). The sooner people stop believing in gurus and miracles, the sooner they can get on with the job. ---
**Author:** ![IL.Grillo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e0b2c6/32.png) [@IL.Grillo](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/IL.Grillo)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 9:39pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001/12 "2023-07-02T21:39:38Z")
> [@tshortt](#): > > 90% FTP is FTP, or close enough. He was likely doing a threshold session. Or “Zone 4” in ISM parlance. Same thing 🤷‍♂️ > > Also, that’s not really the point. What about if it was around 83%? Doesn’t sound like a threshold session. > [@The\_Cog](#): > > People would rather believe in gurus Like you, if you are who you are pretending to be 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![tshortt](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/tshortt/32/3100_2.png) [@tshortt](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/tshortt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 9:43pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001/13 "2023-07-02T21:43:17Z")
> [@The\_Cog](#): > > The sooner people stop believing in gurus and miracles, the sooner they can get on with the job. Cool. I agree. So say **THAT** …not whatever it is you and @kurt.braeckel are patting each other on the back over. Re-read the OP. He doesn’t understand any of that yet. He doesn’t understand the veiled and not so veiled references to other ppl in the industry, training philosophies, any of it. And he’s doing the right thing: _asking questions._ Your responses (both of you) just come across as bullying and self-aggrandizing. You have a chance to educate, enlighten, help out, entertain…if you were a coach, pick up a client…whatever. Heck, I ride with ppl who still think lactate causes fatigue. You think they’re ever going to learn? They bemoan “that burning lactate in my legs” as we go up hills…one of those guys is faster than me. Drives me nuts. You know who cares: no one. They won’t ever learn because they don’t want to. I don’t belittle them. I either ignore them or if/when they get around to asking some very basic questions, I try to steer them in the right direction. That’s all I’m trying to get at guys. And no, your credentials are not going to lead me to respond any differently. It’s not that hard to either be helpful or just ignore the newbies. > [@IL.Grillo](#): > > What about if it was around 83%? Doesn’t sound like a threshold session. Still missing the point. Here’s the point (I cannot say it any clearer): We don’t have to be condescending assholes to each other to tease that out. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@The\_Cog](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/The_Cog)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 9:52pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001/14 "2023-07-02T21:52:36Z")
Make up your mind, will you? You say, “say that”, when it is precisely what I said in my first reply to you. You implore me to provide a detailed answer, when you yourself state that you ignore people who express misconceptions (e.g., “lactate causes fatigue”). You say that I have an opportunity to entertain, which is exactly what my initial comment was meant to do. I have yet to see you try to answer the OP’s question…why don’t you try that, rather than criticizing my responses and calling ME the “condescending asshole”? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Cog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@The\_Cog](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/The_Cog)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 9:55pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001/15 "2023-07-02T21:55:18Z")
If I’m a guru, it’s only because I actually _have_ spent decades toiling away in the laboratory. ---
**Author:** ![DXR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7cd45c/32.png) [@DXR](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/DXR)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 9:56pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001/16 "2023-07-02T21:56:21Z")
Genuinely lost here. Not following the escalation. > [@tshortt](#): > > Maybe you should have. This is where I lost the plot. I don’t know what it’s referring to. Maybe a previous post was edited or I’m just missing it. I just got it. Maybe Coggan should have resisted the joke. Damn, I’m slow today. Maybe others are too, so I’ll leave my slow response up for them. ---
**Author:** ![DXR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7cd45c/32.png) [@DXR](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/DXR)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 10:15pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001/17 "2023-07-02T22:15:34Z")
Now it’s been edited with a quote, I see it straight away, thanks. Anyway, Metabolic Training, I don’t know. It’s what I’ve been hearing in fitness circles for a long time. For professionals like pro cyclists, I’m not sure why they’d use that term instead of commonly agreed upon terms but it could be an audience thing on a video. It’s a little misleading. Maybe metabolic priority training would be better but this ship has set sail already into a bowl of glossary term soup. ---
**Author:** ![kurt.braeckel](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/kurt.braeckel/32/116719_2.png) [@kurt.braeckel](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/kurt.braeckel)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 10:25pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001/18 "2023-07-02T22:25:43Z")
Wow. OK. Point taken. Didn’t think I was being condescending by stating my opinion that this is a fancy name for a 3 hr tempo session. It’s the same criticism I have levied at “polarized training”: most everything that is being touted as new… isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![tshortt](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/tshortt/32/3100_2.png) [@tshortt](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/tshortt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 10:33pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001/19 "2023-07-02T22:33:07Z")
> [@IL.Grillo](#): > > What about if it was around 83%? Doesn’t sound like a threshold session. @IL.Grillo Having now watched the video I see why you’re asking or pointing this now. 👍 They actually **provide % FTP**. So yeah, tempo. I have no idea what McNulty’s FTP would be but no reason to disagree with kurt.braeckel Not sure what McNulty did in his session (and now I’m actually confused by the association…did they mention McNulty in the video?). Agree with @AJS914 …what he is describing as a “metabolic training” in the video just seems like tempo. ---
**Author:** ![tshortt](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/tshortt/32/3100_2.png) [@tshortt](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/tshortt)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2023, 10:52pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001/20 "2023-07-02T22:52:40Z")
> [@kurt.braeckel](#): > > Wow. OK. Point taken. Sorry @kurt.braeckel It’s not initially the way I read it (meaning the tone, not the content). Your questioning what I posted is fine (all good, and very likely correct). I conflated your response with the one I was actually criticizing. Happy to move on. [Next page](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/metabolic-training-what-is-this/85001.md?page=2)