# Latest Stephen Seiler lecture on training. Nov 2019 **URL:** \ **Category:** Training\ **Tags:** polarized\ **Created:** [November 15, 2019, 9:44am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/latest-stephen-seiler-lecture-on-training-nov-2019/24109 "2019-11-15T09:44:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![TheBandit](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/thebandit/32/46399_2.png) [@TheBandit](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/TheBandit)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 9:44am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/latest-stephen-seiler-lecture-on-training-nov-2019/24109/1 "2019-11-15T09:44:18Z")
Starts at 3:26 Features new material. [https://lecturecapture.brookes.ac.uk/Mediasite/Play/8c0f98ec83c44ec6aa98ca199d2defb51d](https://lecturecapture.brookes.ac.uk/Mediasite/Play/8c0f98ec83c44ec6aa98ca199d2defb51d) ---
**Author:** ![KorbenDallas](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/korbendallas/32/86114_2.png) [@KorbenDallas](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/KorbenDallas)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/latest-stephen-seiler-lecture-on-training-nov-2019/24109/2 "2019-11-15T15:14:14Z")
The durability and repeatability comments are so hard to explain to people. So refreshing to listen to him talk about it and how to go about getting it. Nothing new to those who have been around but, it completely confounds those new to training. Should be mandatory listening. ---
**Author:** ![dprimm](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/dprimm/32/7757_2.png) [@dprimm](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/dprimm)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 4:11pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/latest-stephen-seiler-lecture-on-training-nov-2019/24109/3 "2019-11-15T16:11:31Z")
Any way to listen to this as a podcast? Or download to listen to it? I am about to put in several hours of sitting still outside and is a perfect time for me to listen to something that needs quiet. ---
**Author:** ![tshortt](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/tshortt/32/3100_2.png) [@tshortt](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/tshortt)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2019, 6:38pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/latest-stephen-seiler-lecture-on-training-nov-2019/24109/4 "2019-11-15T18:38:04Z")
So many good nuggets that would have saved ppl here on the forums a lot of confusion and doubt around this time last year. Example: 1:10:15 into the video (discussion of zones) Good talk. ---
**Author:** ![bbarrera](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/bbarrera/32/14734_2.png) [@bbarrera](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/bbarrera)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 7:59pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/latest-stephen-seiler-lecture-on-training-nov-2019/24109/5 "2019-11-19T19:59:45Z")
Listening right now and at 1:13:05 he states “but if they pop over into this second zone then you’ll start to see that cardiac drift” and “it will drift from the get go” which is absolutely not my experience. I recently did a “Seiler zone 2” tempo ride and after 16 minute warmup did a 2 hour tempo interval with virtually no cardiac draft (it was 0.05%). Average HR was 85% HRpeak-cycling and 91% LTHR. Shakes head. ---
**Author:** ![mcneese.chad](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mcneese.chad/32/15056_2.png) [@mcneese.chad](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/mcneese.chad)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 8:12pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/latest-stephen-seiler-lecture-on-training-nov-2019/24109/7 "2019-11-19T20:12:55Z")
I honestly lost interest before an hour was up. Seemed pretty much a repeat of prior info, but I have not spent the time to dig into this all lately. Somewhat unrelated, but a question since you mention Cardiac Drift: - What does it mean if you get a negative value? (see data on 1st pic, graph on 2nd) - I see this in my two latest long workouts on the trainer and I don’t kn ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/9/c/9cd0e1532a051d6f949ce66e923b7c104df36fd3.png) ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/a/a/aad06f7dd2185043193742601d184b7cd9f7a3a9.png) ---
**Author:** ![mcneese.chad](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mcneese.chad/32/15056_2.png) [@mcneese.chad](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/mcneese.chad)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 8:21pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/latest-stephen-seiler-lecture-on-training-nov-2019/24109/10 "2019-11-19T20:21:38Z")
I was just taking the quick info from Intervals.icu instead of doing the calculations. I have them in a Google Sheet and will try that really quick. Thanks for the idea 😃 Edit to add: Placed 1st Half and 2nd Half intervals into the ride. - [Log In to TrainerRoad](https://www.trainerroad.com/career/chader09/rides/66475542-koip) And still get a negative value. ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/4/3/431edad565f0e728539c5cdd980fc4f9e2e42e4c.png) My impression is that I am negative since the HR actually drops in the 2nd half (as opposed to increasing). In this case, I was doing some lower cadence drills, that likely dropped my HR more than if they were at higher rpm. ---
**Author:** ![mcneese.chad](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mcneese.chad/32/15056_2.png) [@mcneese.chad](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/mcneese.chad)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/latest-stephen-seiler-lecture-on-training-nov-2019/24109/12 "2019-11-19T20:36:37Z")
Much appreciated. The irony here is that I have read that article and even have it linked on my HR Decoupling page… but apparently my memory of it faded entirely 😛 Thanks for the refresher course! I know the low cadence work was part of this particular ride, but have seen negative on others without that work. I am just trained to look at the positive values and the negative one threw me for a loop. I guess it’s all good. Thanks again 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tshortt](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/tshortt/32/3100_2.png) [@tshortt](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/tshortt)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 8:37pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/latest-stephen-seiler-lecture-on-training-nov-2019/24109/13 "2019-11-19T20:37:58Z")
Then you weren’t in Zone 2 (Seiler physiological). Good for you. > [@bbarrera](#): > > Average HR was 85% HRpeak-cycling and 91% LTHR. Why do I say? If I used 85% Peak, I’m at 156bpm. If I used 91% LTHR, I’m at 147bpm. I absolutely drift at 156bpm (it’s TR sweetspot for me, which is to say Threshold…which is to say too high for day-to-day). 147bpm? I could hold that for almost 2 hrs with minimal drift…AND do nearly the same thing the next day. I just make sure tempo is _actually_ tempo (for ME). Use more than just fixed percentages that vary from person to person to figure it out. ---
**Author:** ![mcneese.chad](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mcneese.chad/32/15056_2.png) [@mcneese.chad](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/mcneese.chad)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 8:45pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/latest-stephen-seiler-lecture-on-training-nov-2019/24109/15 "2019-11-19T20:45:05Z")
I suspect you are right. I am in my 3rd week of a TR HIIT Maintenance plan, following a blood donation 4 weeks ago. So I fully expect my FTP is up from what I tested 3 weeks ago. I even kicked up the Workout Intensity on the “long-easy” rides the last two weeks to 102%, because I figure my FTP is higher. I am on the recovery week and will retest next Tuesday, so it will be interesting to see where I land, but all signs seem to point to an increase in FTP. ---
**Author:** ![bbarrera](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/bbarrera/32/14734_2.png) [@bbarrera](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/bbarrera)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 8:48pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/latest-stephen-seiler-lecture-on-training-nov-2019/24109/16 "2019-11-19T20:48:15Z")
> [@tshortt](#): > > Then you weren’t in Zone 2. Good for you. Umm, no. I think he misspoke. At some point I would have seen cardiac drift, it just didn’t happen at 2 hours. He illustrates that about 10 minutes later with well trained athlete doing 3 hours @ 250W with no cardiac drift (no mention of zone), while someone else saw draft after 3 hours. ---
**Author:** ![mcneese.chad](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/mcneese.chad/32/15056_2.png) [@mcneese.chad](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/mcneese.chad)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 8:52pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/latest-stephen-seiler-lecture-on-training-nov-2019/24109/18 "2019-11-19T20:52:56Z")
HA! That is a new way to look at that prospect. Almost becomes another fake/bad way to try and find the VT1, but I doubt it is actually worthwhile. I do like the idea of increasing a bit on the early half to try and dial in HR vs Power a bit. Could be a bit of fun to kill some time the next time I hit that on the trainer in 2 weeks. Cool option 😃 ---
**Author:** ![tshortt](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/tshortt/32/3100_2.png) [@tshortt](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/tshortt)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 8:57pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/latest-stephen-seiler-lecture-on-training-nov-2019/24109/19 "2019-11-19T20:57:34Z")
@bbarrera Right, so I mean, one is always _eventually_ going to see drift. I took “durability” to mean you just see it later, and that you can see that improvement with no change in threshold. I believe that is what he means by “there really is no true steady state”, early in the video. But my point still stands, he makes some great points in the video (that don’t just parrot his earlier presentations) and we still seem to be hung up on that laboratory based LT1-LT2 zone thing. ---
**Author:** ![bbarrera](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/bbarrera/32/14734_2.png) [@bbarrera](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/bbarrera)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 9:09pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/latest-stephen-seiler-lecture-on-training-nov-2019/24109/20 "2019-11-19T21:09:23Z")
My only walk-away was his message on needing more research on training for durability / aerobic endurance / base / whatever you want to call it. The reality is we do have tools to measure increases in “durability” and they have been available and discussed for years. So while the researchers may be focused on vo2max, there are coaches (like Tim Cusick) that have been discussing practical approaches to measuring improvements to “durability.” I find Tim’s webinars and articles to offer a lot of bang for my listening/reading “buck” 😃 ---
**Author:** ![bbarrera](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/bbarrera/32/14734_2.png) [@bbarrera](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/bbarrera)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/latest-stephen-seiler-lecture-on-training-nov-2019/24109/22 "2019-11-19T21:23:51Z")
> [@tshortt](#): > > Not _how_ as in “how do I do this as an athlete?”, but how do I explain this phenomenon as a scientist? What are the physiological _mechanisms_ that lead to this? That’s what he’s interested in. > **[The Science of Decoupling](https://alancouzens.blogspot.com/2009/10/science-of-decoupling.html)** > > Those of you familiar with the training philosophies of Joe Friel (the guy decoupling big time in the shot above :-) will have no doubt com... there is some good info out there. I don’t want to listen to out of context snippets, which is kinda how I felt during this lecture’s decoupling discussion. ---
**Author:** ![bbarrera](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/bbarrera/32/14734_2.png) [@bbarrera](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/bbarrera)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 9:49pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/latest-stephen-seiler-lecture-on-training-nov-2019/24109/24 "2019-11-19T21:49:13Z")
depends. I’ve got some long sweet spot intervals with very low decoupling (about 1-2%). on the aerobic endurance and tempo rides I get little decoupling after some basic fitness is established. For example I started TB1 on August 26 and was seeing 15% decoupling. Near the end of week 3 (on Sept 14) did [Gibbs](https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/workouts/21526-gibbs) and it was 75 degrees in garage with ok but not great fan cooling. Here is the portion of the workout after warmup, and before I got off the bike for a minute because my butt was getting sore: ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/7/3/73251fbbcd7b084be4b41e6453f95debb5c59c8d.jpeg) not sure where any of this is going… and here is 50 minutes just below lactate threshold on an [hour-of-power](https://www.trainerroad.com/forumt/science-behind-sweet-spot-methodology/5358/41) workout (after 20 minute warmup): ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/original/3X/a/c/accad780c2692514c73a276c1765bd34cb575af8.png) ---
**Author:** ![bbarrera](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/bbarrera/32/14734_2.png) [@bbarrera](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/bbarrera)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/latest-stephen-seiler-lecture-on-training-nov-2019/24109/26 "2019-11-19T22:06:33Z")
sure, I’ve read that many times. My own personal theory for negative decoupling in those two examples above is that somewhere around 30 minutes after starting to ride, my legs stop using type II fibers and go all in on type I fibers (BTW I didn’t cherry pick and was surprised to see negative decoupling). I’ve always been a diesel, in middle school and high school never finished any short track & field events in upper half of field. Only had decent results in longer running events. ---
**Author:** ![TomasIvarsson](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/trainerroad/forum/user_avatar/www.trainerroad.com/tomasivarsson/32/14045_2.png) [@TomasIvarsson](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/u/TomasIvarsson)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2019, 5:40am UTC](https://www.trainerroad.com/forum/t/latest-stephen-seiler-lecture-on-training-nov-2019/24109/27 "2019-11-20T05:40:02Z")
I experience negative decoupling frequently on rides like Boarstone and Koip. My theory was along the same lines as you, @bbarrera. Searching the Internet does not shed much light on this phenomenon. Could the upper limit of Seiler’s zone 1 be at the intensity where decoupling \>= 0 on such a ride maybe?